branchandroot | Actually quite good people skills

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drama: guardian

Actually quite good people skills

Brief Guardian meta, because I keep tripping over mentions, here and there, interpreting Shen Wei as having bad people skills, sometimes phrased as “how do human?”. And it’s just so opposite my own reading of the character that it trips me up in the middle of writing, and then I sit there for a few minutes staring into space and blinking in befuddlement.

I mean. Shen Wei is a teacher. And while it’s quite possible to get a job teaching with bad people skills (especially, alas, at university level), you do not get to be a popular professor with bad people skills. All the professional interactions we see are him being welcoming and encouraging to his students and sympathetic to people Having Emotions (eg Li Qian and Zhang Ruonan). And then there’s his reaction to being brought in for questioning, early on, which is to play every questioner like a violin—and he only has unfair prior knowledge of one. He also has that effortless non-verbal communication with Zhao Yunlan even when they’re fighting. And while it’s romantic to say that’s because they love each other, True Love does not automatically make a person able to pick up non-verbal cues. (Be nice if it did, but alas, no.)

The only moment I can see that truly demonstrates interpersonal awkwardness is when Zhao Yunlan prompts him to comfort a distraught woman, at which point Shen Wei takes a hasty step back and shoves Zhao Yunlan himself into the breach. And, really, that read far more strongly to me of “You want me to do what with a woman?”. Considering how fast Zhao Yunlan beats a parallel retreat on being confronted with a woman trying to confess her love, I really hesitate to take such behavior as a general indicator of low people skills.

Shen Wei is habitually autocratic, when he’s in Official Mode. He’s intensely reserved about personal things, unless of course he’s talking to Zhao Yunlan. He’s easily flustered when presented with hope where he thought there was none. But bad at people, or even at silly humans and their rules? I just don’t see it.

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*ponders* That’s a really interesting point, because Zhao Yunlan also reads to me as having a great deal of difficulty letting people in. He shows emotion far more easily, but whether that emotion is genuine... well, whenever he’s smiling I pretty much tick the box for “this is manipulation”. He does demonstrate trust in others more easily, at least for the extremely limited subset of his team, but of course that’s what makes his see-saw of trust/don’t-trust with Shen Wei so poignant, especially when Shen Wei is standing there wearing a mask but still holding out his heart in his hand. They’re just a fascinating study in parallels and opposites.

(Thank you for such a thought-provoking comment!)

Oh, I like that headcanon. I could easily see Cheng Xingyan’s wry sort of affection as being the shape of a recovered crush, who’s probably going to tease him mercilessly about Zhao Yunlan as soon as they don’t have a crisis going on.

Sort of in reference to xparrot's comment, above:

I think one of the biggest problems is that people try to equate/generalise drama characterisation and novel characterisation. Neither Shen Wei nor Zhao Yunlan are even remotely the same people in the drama compared to the novel, and I firmly believe that we should keep the two canons entirely separate in order to avoid mischaracterisation. I personally get a bit annoyed when people write drama!ZYL as a shameless playboy (though I do agree with the reading that he's bi and has been 'round the block a bit ^^), or SW as an obsessive, possessive dark creature; there is no evidence whatsoever for either of those traits in show canon, imo. Novel Shen Wei is a demon, a creature who is extremely different from a human in terms of biological makeup, psychology, upbringing (such as it were), moral values, etc., etc. So it makes sense for him to fail at being human (in fact, I don't believe he should even try to hide his nature, because why should he?), but not for drama!SW who is, essentially, from a cousin species of humans. Dixingren are shown in drama canon, over and over, to not be all that different from Haixingren, especially when it comes to emotions and relationships. Heck, I'd call it one of the major themes of the show, so it doesn't make sense to me to read the most important Dixingren in the story as someone ineptly pretending to be human for the sake of his lover!

To answer the OP:

I totally agree that Shen Wei's interpersonal skills are perfectly normal! However, he does flounder a bit re: ZYL, not because he's bad at understanding him or empathising with him, but because he does seem to be new to the concept of selfishly coveting something/someone for himself where previously his various duties were his only love. So he seems to think only about how best to protect ZYL and make him happy, regardless of the cost to himself; essentially, I think, viewing their interactions through the lens of "responsibility/duty," which is familiar to him and which he's good at, not realising that a relationship (whether it's based on romantic love or platonic, however one wishes to read their drama dynamic, which imo can go either way) is a two-way street and that sharing burdens is an essential part of a personal relationship as opposed to a professional one. Hence the adamant secret-keeping and self-sacrificing, and the frequent head-butting with ZYL over the same.

*clinks glasses*

I definitely do think that scene should be held a little outside any estimation of the characters, if only because it was pushed to comic relief and to do that often means tilting the characters a bit. Then, too, Shen Wei’s comfort tends to be quiet—more a matter of being there than performing consolation. I read that as the exact opposite of Zhao Yunlan’s approach, which is to flawlessly perform social expectations while always holding the deepest part of himself apart (I blame Zhao Xinci so very much). So that whole scene also feels to me like Zhao Yunlan expecting Shen Wei to do what he would, and Shen Wei being completely unprepared to do any such thing.

And, as I wound up pondering above, I really feel like Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan are about equivalent in both their capabilities and their difficulties in re interpersonal relations—just in ways that are unfortunately complementary. They’re both wearing masks most of the time, and they both have a real problem relying on other people. So it’s fascinating to watch how readily they rely on each other, while still wearing those masks so much of the time.

This is how I read it, too! Though not so much that Dr. Cheng has/had a crush on SW as ZYL thinking there had been something going on between them back in the day (probably cos he can't believe that such a catch as SW could have gone thousands of years without a single romantic relationship ^^). Remember the weird way he laughed when SW introduced her as "a friend of mine from college"? And when she was crying, the look ZYL gave SW was like, "So, you not gonna comfort your former crush/GF?" and SW going, "She is not my former anything, and just for your idiotic teasing I'm gonna make you comfort her instead!" I found that scene hilarious, tbh, inappropriate though it may have been considering the situation with Zu Ma.

ETA: Sorry for spamming your post with so many comments! I should probably shut up now, but I have so many feels about Shen Wei that haven't yet found a sufficient outlet, so...

Edited 2019-07-13 16:42 (UTC)

Excellent points, all. I do find it fascinating how strongly the drama is in dialogue with the novel, but the world building, cosmology, and character building all do seem quite distinct, as you say.

(Which is, me being me, why I had to go and try to work out a plausible fusion of them, but that’s an expanding story arc for another day.)

Definitely agree that the issue of letting anyone else take on part of his burden is one of Shen Wei’s major issues (and also Zhao Yunlan’s, for that matter, which is delightful irony).

Absolutely this! The way I read it, ZYL is just as much of an introvert, and almost as responsible for their issues in miscommunications, as SW. I think it's also the reason that he was so much smoother and more suave at the beginning of their relationship, when most of his actions were manipulative or had a stronger intention to seduce than to interact on a serious emotional level, than later on. For example, the way he reacted to the eye-healing, while perfectly understandable, did not in any way convey to SW that the reason for his fury was that he didn't want SW to hurt himself for his sake, but rather that he was annoyed about being lied to and concerned about being indebted. I don't blame him, of course, and doubtless the censorship had something to do with it (I don't think "how dare you try to drain away your life when I want to spend the rest of mine with you!" would have gotten past the censors ^^), but the point stands. And SW's barriers are high enough that nothing short of a direct statement would ever be able to get above them.

...but of course that’s what makes his see-saw of trust/don’t-trust with Shen Wei so poignant, especially when Shen Wei is standing there wearing a mask but still holding out his heart in his hand...

I think you just broke my heart with that line! A perfect summary of their relationship, and why, in a way, I don't 100% believe they were a couple in the drama like they were in the novel (no matter how much I want to!) They're a bit too similar re: masks and boundaries and insurmountable walls of introversion compared to their novel selves to ever have been able to get together. Heck, if they'd been better at communication, they might both have survived the finale! (Not that I'm complaining; I personally liked the ending, heartbroken though I was.)

(Please, feel free! This is all great fun to read.)

(No, no, feel free! It’s been forever since I hosted a nice discussion. ^_^)

Shen Wei’s comfort tends to be quiet—more a matter of being there than performing consolation. I read that as the exact opposite of Zhao Yunlan’s approach, which is to flawlessly perform social expectations while always holding the deepest part of himself apart

Oooh, what a great observation!

I really feel like Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan are about equivalent in both their capabilities and their difficulties in re interpersonal relations—just in ways that are unfortunately complementary. They’re both wearing masks most of the time, and they both have a real problem relying on other people. So it’s fascinating to watch how readily they rely on each other, while still wearing those masks so much of the time.

Yeah, I completely agree with this, too. They're both hiding so much about themselves, in very different ways, it's amazing they come together and fit together and work together so well. ♥

(I do wonder how much of that is a function of the time loop, and the fact that they both first encounter a version of the other who's already in love with them. It would all probably be much harder for them if they first met in a more linear way!)

Btw, totally friending you now. :)

For example, the way he reacted to the eye-healing, while perfectly understandable, did not in any way convey to SW that the reason for his fury was that he didn't want SW to hurt himself for his sake, but rather that he was annoyed about being lied to and concerned about being indebted.

Good point! Zhao Yunlan definitely is responsible for some missteps and miscommunications, and I think you're right that he's much more comfortable when he has another goal as a cover. And he has a hard time letting go of that and be genuine.

Just to make sure - how literally do you mean "playing the villain"? Do you read him as actively making himself look like a villain? Because I wouldn't describe it that way ...

and something like ego or indignation played a part in the way he chose to approach that pre-Zhao Yunlan interrogation

Ego and trollish instincts? *g*

This fits in with some other stuff I was recently discussing with someone but now for the life of me I can't remember what the canon issue was...

So curious about this now! Let me know if you remember. :)

No, sorry, shorthand. *g* I should know better by now! I meant that he acts in a way not designed to make him look less suspicious, and very likely to make him look more suspicious. If you're found at the scene of a crime, especially after being found loosely associated with a bunch of other previous crimes, actively and blatantly fucking with the heads of two police officers and looking like you're enjoying that you're good at that is... like ExtraPenguin says, he makes himself look like a suspect - as a byproduct rather than an active aim, though.

So curious about this now! Let me know if you remember. :)

Will do! I think it had something to do with ego in general but I can't puzzle it out until I remember what ep / canon moment it was about.

as a byproduct rather than an active aim

Oh, good, then we're not actually reading him wildly differently. I'm relieved! *g*

That much seems to be true on the romantic front. Zhao Yunlan has never had a relationship he considered to be a serious/deep until Shen Wei, and even at the end before he gave up his life, he's lamenting "Oh, maybe my being single for so long was because this was to be my fate."

But it feels like Zhao Yunlan has deeper general connections in general. His friendship with Da Qing especially feels so genuine and trusting. And he has his found family with the SID. I guess that's why I get the impression that while he's never found much romantic success, he is better at letting people in when he deems them trustworthy enough.

I think Zhao Yunlan has the "I am schmoozing with people because a Chief has gotta do what a Chief has gotta do" smile, and he also has a genuine smile for the people he cares about, like when he's snuggling with Da Qing on the couch, or when he sees Shen Wei for the first time after his eyes are cured.

The first bit of cat-and-mouse games he had with Shen Wei definitely had a quality of him wanting to trust Shen Wei, and being drawn to Shen Wei in a way he's never felt before. But also still maintaining his suspicion - I call his approach back then flirt-terrogations :P. I think they never truly get past that until the time travel occurs, and by then things have gone to hell too much for them to communicate. On some levels, I wish the bench relaxation scene had happened after the time travel!

I love what you said about Shen Wei wearing a mask and not revealing all of himself, but whole-heartedly loving Zhao Yunlan without any doubt.

The time loop does make for a really wonderful circuit of /both/ of them being the first to say ‘yes, of course I trust you with my life’... precisely because the other one did it first!

Yeah, but the thing is, I don't think ZYL's issues are about letting other people take on the burden, as such; apart from sacrifices of life and limb (which he rightfully won't ask of anyone else), he seems perfectly comfortable delegating even major responsibilities to the other SID members. Which is what makes him a good team leader, as opposed to SW who - I believe not even by choice, but due to his vast difference in power/status compared to other Dixingren and the fact that he was practically raised into the role of military commander (and an army isn't really a team) - has always being a solitary player who doesn't really trust anyone to perform his duties except himself.

ZYL's problem is mainly concerned with emotional expression, as evidenced by his issues with rejecting Zhu Hong until he was literally forced into it by the plot, his weird speech about not being able to fall in love (to SW himself!) in the taxi, the fact that his instant response to the more emotional moments is either flippancy or sarcasm, etc. OTOH, SW doesn't seem to have any problem expressing emotion: he apologises when he's in the wrong, when he's furious about people shirking their duties you can see it radiating off him in waves, he's capable of genuine (non-sarcastic) humour, and his love for ZYL practically fills the screen every time they share a scene. This doesn't mean he isn't very reticent about the actual details of his personal life, because of course he is, but imo emotional expression as and when needed and extroversion aren't the same thing at all; ZYL is an extrovert in a performative sense but very few of his true feelings are ever revealed, after all.

So it's like they're both utterly reserved and solitary, but in two completely different domains. Which, while fascinating from a purely logical standpoint, is also kind of sad when you consider the emotional side of things.

Even Chu Shuzhi who he trusts and works with doesn't really count as much of a friend.

I always assumed that was on Chu Shuzhi? In episode 2, at the first private meeting we see between them, isn't Shen Wei all, "We could be friends," and Chu Shuzhi all, "I am your very loyal servant, sir!"? Or am I misremembering?

(This is not a new problem for the Envoy, after all. Maybe one of his main motivations in choosing to become a professor was to meet more people/make more friends?)

Yeah, that might be! Lao Chu has too much of a hero worship complex for Heipao to really have an equal relationship between them. Poor lonely Envoy! That was a problem he had in the past too and why Kunlun meant so much to him!

I have a small headcanon that, when Zhao Yunlan entered the scene, Shen Wei abruptly withdrew from most all of his socializing with other professors in the prof-dorms, drinks with friends, etc. and that his entire network is half doting and half rolling their eyes about how hard Shen Wei obviously fell for this cop guy.

Hee, that's awesome! Yes! <3

Completely agreed on the romantic part, and Da Qing! But about the SID team as a found family, I was just talking to

china_shop about this the other day, and I don't think Zhao Yunlan is actually that close to anyone but Da Qing at the start of the show. Not that he doesn't care about them, but he's still keeping them at arm's length emotionally, and hides what's going on in his head/his heart. He projects a cheerful and somewhat callous persona, and no one really knows what's underneath. (Witness them talking about him being cold, early on.) But by the end of the show they really are a family, and they all genuinely know him. I think that's a big part of Zhao Yunlan's character arc over the course of the show, actually ...

Jingyan and Shen Wei definitely have things in common...though Shen Wei's damage is more (if not entirely) self-inflicted, while Jingyan had no real escape from his responsibilities. But yeah...those Wuhan boys with their giant luminous eyes and glass-cutting cheekbones! (both Wang Kai and Zhu Yilong are from the same city ^^)

The novel is...different? It's both more of a comedy and more of a melodrama than the show. And there are some fans who strongly feel the characterizations are so different that they should basically be treated like separate characters, which is not how I see it; to me the book and drama versions of WeiLan are more like AUs of each other, with different worldbuilding that emphasizes different aspects of their characters. I tend to write and meta for the drama (I don't know Chinese, have only read translations, so I don't feel like I have as firm a handle on the novelverse), but places where the drama characterization runs thin, I tend to default to the novel characterizations.

OMG I'm really really late to this party and I was just reading all the discussion I missed with interest when I came across this.

he's lamenting "Oh, maybe my being single for so long was because this was to be my fate."

I don't think he's lamenting - I don't think he regrets a thing about being single. He's never been interested in traditional marriage and he makes that very clear in that one taxi ride. I read this one as semi-humorous bravado, nothing more. :)

Forgive me for the belated disagreement.

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Actually quite good people skills

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