Actually quite good people skills

[branchandroot]

Brief Guardian meta, because I keep tripping over mentions, here and there, interpreting Shen Wei as having bad people skills, sometimes phrased as “how do human?”. And it’s just so opposite my own reading of the character that it trips me up in the middle of writing, and then I sit there for a few minutes staring into space and blinking in befuddlement.

I mean. Shen Wei is a teacher. And while it’s quite possible to get a job teaching with bad people skills (especially, alas, at university level), you do not get to be a popular professor with bad people skills. All the professional interactions we see are him being welcoming and encouraging to his students and sympathetic to people Having Emotions (eg Li Qian and Zhang Ruonan). And then there’s his reaction to being brought in for questioning, early on, which is to play every questioner like a violin—and he only has unfair prior knowledge of one. He also has that effortless non-verbal communication with Zhao Yunlan even when they’re fighting. And while it’s romantic to say that’s because they love each other, True Love does not automatically make a person able to pick up non-verbal cues. (Be nice if it did, but alas, no.)

The only moment I can see that truly demonstrates interpersonal awkwardness is when Zhao Yunlan prompts him to comfort a distraught woman, at which point Shen Wei takes a hasty step back and shoves Zhao Yunlan himself into the breach. And, really, that read far more strongly to me of “You want me to do what with a woman?”. Considering how fast Zhao Yunlan beats a parallel retreat on being confronted with a woman trying to confess her love, I really hesitate to take such behavior as a general indicator of low people skills.

Shen Wei is habitually autocratic, when he’s in Official Mode. He’s intensely reserved about personal things, unless of course he’s talking to Zhao Yunlan. He’s easily flustered when presented with hope where he thought there was none. But bad at people, or even at silly humans and their rules? I just don’t see it.

Comments

[xparrot]

Hmmm. I agree that Shen Wei has decent interpersonal skills -- he's quite reserved and formal and doesn't have much (any?) of a social life beyond work (until/except for Zhao Yunlan), but he's very functional professionally (both as the professor and as the BCE). And he is reasonably good at reading people and playing them when needed.

On the other hand, his intrapersonal skills are...limited, in that he doesn't seem to have a personal life until he meets Zhao Yunlan; he doesn't seem to have hobbies, he doesn't put a lot of value on his own life but is very willing to sacrifice himself to his causes. Most of the decisions he makes for himself are in the name of restraint, of denying and ignoring his own wants and needs as much as he can (except again when it comes to Zhao Yunlan). Most of the comments I've seen referring to Shen Wei's inability to "people" were more referring to this side of him -- not that he's bad with other people, but that he's bad at treating himself like a person.

ETA: also at least for me, I also am thinking about novel!Shen Wei, who literally isn't close to human and is erratic about how successfully he pretends to be one!

[kimboo_york]

I've seen referring to Shen Wei's inability to "people" were more referring to this side of him -- not that he's bad with other people, but that he's bad at treating himself like a person.

THIS! This is what I trying to formulate as a response to this post. Agree 100%.

My headcanon is that it's a result of his "power" of learning. He has seen a LOT of how other people treat each other and so he analyzes how they successfully interact and can replicate it. That is, his "how do human" is performative. He can play people like a violin b/c he is a strategist with the learned skills to pull it off. The Dixing autocratic side is no less so -- we see in YOHE that he's still coming into his role as a leader, it's something he's figuring out as he goes.

But he doesn't know how or hasn't thought it necessary to treat himself like a person. His intrapersonal skills are thus...lacking. IMHO.

(and now I'm bunnied for more of The Lost Primces series, oh no)

[branchandroot]

Ah, now that makes more sense, yes. I recall when Lys and I were first drowning in Nirvana in Fire and she mentioned that Jingyan is made of self-sacrifice and good cheekbones, which seems even more true of Shen Wei.

And that’s is absolutely why I’m holding off on the novel until I have the current arc of stories finished, because I /know/ it’s going to shift my sense of the characters!

[xparrot]

Jingyan and Shen Wei definitely have things in common...though Shen Wei's damage is more (if not entirely) self-inflicted, while Jingyan had no real escape from his responsibilities. But yeah...those Wuhan boys with their giant luminous eyes and glass-cutting cheekbones! (both Wang Kai and Zhu Yilong are from the same city ^^)

The novel is...different? It's both more of a comedy and more of a melodrama than the show. And there are some fans who strongly feel the characterizations are so different that they should basically be treated like separate characters, which is not how I see it; to me the book and drama versions of WeiLan are more like AUs of each other, with different worldbuilding that emphasizes different aspects of their characters. I tend to write and meta for the drama (I don't know Chinese, have only read translations, so I don't feel like I have as firm a handle on the novelverse), but places where the drama characterization runs thin, I tend to default to the novel characterizations.

[bonibaru]

I agree that drama Shen Wei is good at human interactions. The only time he's terrible at human-ing is when it comes to knowing the emotional language of Zhao Yunlan, and don't we all just know in some way what that's like? lol.

[branchandroot]

Zhao Yunlan is kind of terrifyingly good at his masks, for certain, and it makes me want to beat Zhao Xinci over the head with something on a regular basis.

[china_shop]

I agree! I think the show makes a point of showing him being good with students, friends (Dr Cheng!) and colleagues.

I feel like there's a bit of a tendency to hold him to a weirdly high standard compared to the other characters, and mark him down whenever he's perceived not to meet it.

And then there’s his reaction to being brought in for questioning, early on, which is to play every questioner like a violin

Hee! Yes! ♥ :-)

[branchandroot]

This! I mean, we get dumped headfirst into SID doings, so it’s not shown explicitly at the beginning, but he does seem to have a social network. I have a small headcanon that, when Zhao Yunlan entered the scene, Shen Wei abruptly withdrew from most all of his socializing with other professors in the prof-dorms, drinks with friends, etc. and that his entire network is half doting and half rolling their eyes about how hard Shen Wei obviously fell for this cop guy.

[china_shop]

I have a small headcanon that, when Zhao Yunlan entered the scene, Shen Wei abruptly withdrew from most all of his socializing with other professors in the prof-dorms, drinks with friends, etc. and that his entire network is half doting and half rolling their eyes about how hard Shen Wei obviously fell for this cop guy.

Hee, that's awesome! Yes! <3

[jo_lasalle]

And, really, that read far more strongly to me of “You want me to do what with a woman?”

I admit I don't find the "she's a woman!" explanation for that height of awkwardness scene convincing, especially since some of his best interpersonal skills come out around Li Qian. But I'm also genuinely curious: do you see any indication that if Dr. Cheng were a man mourning the death of his brother, Shen Wei would have an easier time going up to him and offering comfort?

ETA: I was originally going to bounce off Xparrot's comment but then realised I'd missed a crucial line there, so putting it here separately after all. To me where "not knowing how to human" comes in is primarily with lack of experience. Shen Wei has a lot of experience with some things (all that war fighting, envoying, professoring) but there are IMO also parts of the human experience that he hasn't had that much to do with (partly through his self-denial and waiting tendencies, partly through the Zhao Yunlan single focus, partly through all the war fighting and envoying he's had to do), and IMO that shows when suddenly he's confronted with them. My prime example is his (IMO) profound Not Getting of what the deal is with Zhao Yunlan and his dad, and then despite being generally attuned to Zhao Yunlan handling Zhao Yunlan catching him at a tea date with Zhao Xinci not well (and knowing he's not handling it well). He's not terrible or the only person who would be flaily in such a moment, mind. But to me that falls into the "Shen Wei lacks some experiences that are directly tied to being closely emotionally tangled up with other humans so when he's closely emotionally tangled up with other humans, sometimes the inexperience shows". That doesn't negate all the ways he's good at handling himself, especially IMO in more structured situations, but to me that's a thing that's there.

But "not knowing how to human" is also a shorthand, which can be a bit broad strokes, and apparently this is one that can push people's buttons. *g*

[extrapenguin]

I would like to co-sign this comment. There is a subset of interpersonal skills Shen Wei is good at, a subset he's bad at, and there are situations where he doesn't know which set of interpersonal skills to use. (Also ones where he picks "wrong", such as that interrogation scene. He basically put a neon sign of "Hi, my name is Suspicious!" atop his head, when that probably wasn't his intent.)

The whole "how does human" thing is to me more of an acknowledgement that his interpersonal skills profile is very uneven, plus the fact that since he's an alien from ten thousand years ago, he did have to actually learn all of those modern social skills/acceptable social reactions as an adult/late teen, instead of as a child by osmosis.

[jo_lasalle]

He basically put a neon sign of "Hi, my name is Suspicious!" atop his head, when that probably wasn't his intent.

That's a really interesting point. That scene is brought up a lot (correctly, IMO!) in the context of Shen Wei knowing how to read people, and it is very clear that he knows how to push Zhu Hong and Chu Shuzhi's buttons here expertly. So I think it totally does say that about his interpersonal skills. But this could also have very much blown up in his face if there'd been someone observing this who is as smart as Zhao Yunlan, but not as personally into / instinctively trusting of Shen Wei, at least for protecting his professor persona.

This is a scene I'm still chewing on now and then because it's IMO one of the few times we see Shen Wei in an arrogant mode, and it always struck me as a little unexpected a choice. So this is an interesting angle to add to that pondering...

[branchandroot]

*thoughtful* I actually do think he would have had an easier time with a man, yes, but I also think that feeling is shaped by how the show writers deployed his interactions with men versus women. We’re allowed to see Shen Wei interacting with men with a weighted or sober emotional throughline (Chu, Wu, Ye Zun, the Regent for that matter), while this particular moment of Dr. Cheng’s grief is interrupted by playing for an audience laugh.

[jo_lasalle]

while this particular moment of Dr. Chen’s grief is interrupted by playing for an audience laugh.

There is that. To be perfectly honest, if that scene was not in the show, I wouldn't miss it. >.< I really don't point to it for "Shen Wei's awkwardness" because I'm overly fond of it; I think it is written to be funny, in a totally off-key moment. I found the shoving of Zhao Yunlan cute the first time when I was hyperfixated on them, and then cringed every other time I watched it. (I do think it speaks to a part of Shen Wei's characterisation, though, so I don't think it should be disregarded as 'that one weird off-key scene that's just there for the lulz', so, I'm stuck with it.)

[qikiqtarjuaq]

I think he has really good professional interpersonal skills. He is a caring teacher who encourages and empathizes with his students and colleagues. And as part of his Black-Cloaked Envoy duties, I think he's also pretty skilled at verbal sparring/questioning that kind of come hand-in-hand with chasing down criminals.

But I also think he struggles with anything deeper and more intimate and letting people in. Even Chu Shuzhi who he trusts and works with doesn't really count as much of a friend. Even with Zhao Yunlan, who he loves, he doesn't always succeed at communicating or navigating the ups and downs of their relationship. I think Zhao Yunlan's emotional maturity and patience plays a huge part in how they are able to be successful in the show.

The situation with Dr. Cheng I do find a little unusual, because he seems to have no issues comforting Li Qian for her loss. But maybe it's the difference between colleagues vs someone he feels he has a mentorship relationship with.

[trobadora]

You know, I don't think Zhao Yunlan is that much better at actually letting people in? Intimacy is hard for both of them. Zhao Yunlan is much better with other stuff, but with that, they're not so far apart.

[branchandroot]

*ponders* That’s a really interesting point, because Zhao Yunlan also reads to me as having a great deal of difficulty letting people in. He shows emotion far more easily, but whether that emotion is genuine... well, whenever he’s smiling I pretty much tick the box for “this is manipulation”. He does demonstrate trust in others more easily, at least for the extremely limited subset of his team, but of course that’s what makes his see-saw of trust/don’t-trust with Shen Wei so poignant, especially when Shen Wei is standing there wearing a mask but still holding out his heart in his hand. They’re just a fascinating study in parallels and opposites.

(Thank you for such a thought-provoking comment!)

[china_shop]

Even Chu Shuzhi who he trusts and works with doesn't really count as much of a friend.

I always assumed that was on Chu Shuzhi? In episode 2, at the first private meeting we see between them, isn't Shen Wei all, "We could be friends," and Chu Shuzhi all, "I am your very loyal servant, sir!"? Or am I misremembering?

(This is not a new problem for the Envoy, after all. Maybe one of his main motivations in choosing to become a professor was to meet more people/make more friends?)

[amara1783]

I don't read Shen Wei as bad at people either, except a bit inexperienced at close personal relationships.

A reason I could think of that he maybe wouldn't want to comfort Cheng Xinyan is that he might not want to give her the wrong idea - maybe she had a crush on him when they were at uni perhaps?

[branchandroot]

Oh, I like that headcanon. I could easily see Cheng Xingyan’s wry sort of affection as being the shape of a recovered crush, who’s probably going to tease him mercilessly about Zhao Yunlan as soon as they don’t have a crisis going on.

[winter_blossom]

This is how I read it, too! Though not so much that Dr. Cheng has/had a crush on SW as ZYL thinking there had been something going on between them back in the day (probably cos he can't believe that such a catch as SW could have gone thousands of years without a single romantic relationship ^^). Remember the weird way he laughed when SW introduced her as "a friend of mine from college"? And when she was crying, the look ZYL gave SW was like, "So, you not gonna comfort your former crush/GF?" and SW going, "She is not my former anything, and just for your idiotic teasing I'm gonna make you comfort her instead!" I found that scene hilarious, tbh, inappropriate though it may have been considering the situation with Zu Ma.

ETA: Sorry for spamming your post with so many comments! I should probably shut up now, but I have so many feels about Shen Wei that haven't yet found a sufficient outlet, so...

[trobadora]

Thank you so much for this post, because your thoughts are my thoughts. ♥

About Dr Cheng, I don't think it's about her being a woman, though. And I think if Zhao Yunlan hadn't been there he would have gone and comforted her. But since Zhao Yunlan is there, he doesn't have to. (I feel like people conflate "doesn't like doing x" with "is bad at doing x" a lot, when it comes to things like this.)

[branchandroot]

*clinks glasses*

I definitely do think that scene should be held a little outside any estimation of the characters, if only because it was pushed to comic relief and to do that often means tilting the characters a bit. Then, too, Shen Wei’s comfort tends to be quiet—more a matter of being there than performing consolation. I read that as the exact opposite of Zhao Yunlan’s approach, which is to flawlessly perform social expectations while always holding the deepest part of himself apart (I blame Zhao Xinci so very much). So that whole scene also feels to me like Zhao Yunlan expecting Shen Wei to do what he would, and Shen Wei being completely unprepared to do any such thing.

And, as I wound up pondering above, I really feel like Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan are about equivalent in both their capabilities and their difficulties in re interpersonal relations—just in ways that are unfortunately complementary. They’re both wearing masks most of the time, and they both have a real problem relying on other people. So it’s fascinating to watch how readily they rely on each other, while still wearing those masks so much of the time.

[winter_blossom]

Sort of in reference to xparrot's comment, above:

I think one of the biggest problems is that people try to equate/generalise drama characterisation and novel characterisation. Neither Shen Wei nor Zhao Yunlan are even remotely the same people in the drama compared to the novel, and I firmly believe that we should keep the two canons entirely separate in order to avoid mischaracterisation. I personally get a bit annoyed when people write drama!ZYL as a shameless playboy (though I do agree with the reading that he's bi and has been 'round the block a bit ^^), or SW as an obsessive, possessive dark creature; there is no evidence whatsoever for either of those traits in show canon, imo. Novel Shen Wei is a demon, a creature who is extremely different from a human in terms of biological makeup, psychology, upbringing (such as it were), moral values, etc., etc. So it makes sense for him to fail at being human (in fact, I don't believe he should even try to hide his nature, because why should he?), but not for drama!SW who is, essentially, from a cousin species of humans. Dixingren are shown in drama canon, over and over, to not be all that different from Haixingren, especially when it comes to emotions and relationships. Heck, I'd call it one of the major themes of the show, so it doesn't make sense to me to read the most important Dixingren in the story as someone ineptly pretending to be human for the sake of his lover!

To answer the OP:

I totally agree that Shen Wei's interpersonal skills are perfectly normal! However, he does flounder a bit re: ZYL, not because he's bad at understanding him or empathising with him, but because he does seem to be new to the concept of selfishly coveting something/someone for himself where previously his various duties were his only love. So he seems to think only about how best to protect ZYL and make him happy, regardless of the cost to himself; essentially, I think, viewing their interactions through the lens of "responsibility/duty," which is familiar to him and which he's good at, not realising that a relationship (whether it's based on romantic love or platonic, however one wishes to read their drama dynamic, which imo can go either way) is a two-way street and that sharing burdens is an essential part of a personal relationship as opposed to a professional one. Hence the adamant secret-keeping and self-sacrificing, and the frequent head-butting with ZYL over the same.

[branchandroot]

Excellent points, all. I do find it fascinating how strongly the drama is in dialogue with the novel, but the world building, cosmology, and character building all do seem quite distinct, as you say.

(Which is, me being me, why I had to go and try to work out a plausible fusion of them, but that’s an expanding story arc for another day.)

Definitely agree that the issue of letting anyone else take on part of his burden is one of Shen Wei’s major issues (and also Zhao Yunlan’s, for that matter, which is delightful irony).