branchandroot | Actually quite good people skills

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drama: guardian

Actually quite good people skills

Brief Guardian meta, because I keep tripping over mentions, here and there, interpreting Shen Wei as having bad people skills, sometimes phrased as “how do human?”. And it’s just so opposite my own reading of the character that it trips me up in the middle of writing, and then I sit there for a few minutes staring into space and blinking in befuddlement.

I mean. Shen Wei is a teacher. And while it’s quite possible to get a job teaching with bad people skills (especially, alas, at university level), you do not get to be a popular professor with bad people skills. All the professional interactions we see are him being welcoming and encouraging to his students and sympathetic to people Having Emotions (eg Li Qian and Zhang Ruonan). And then there’s his reaction to being brought in for questioning, early on, which is to play every questioner like a violin—and he only has unfair prior knowledge of one. He also has that effortless non-verbal communication with Zhao Yunlan even when they’re fighting. And while it’s romantic to say that’s because they love each other, True Love does not automatically make a person able to pick up non-verbal cues. (Be nice if it did, but alas, no.)

The only moment I can see that truly demonstrates interpersonal awkwardness is when Zhao Yunlan prompts him to comfort a distraught woman, at which point Shen Wei takes a hasty step back and shoves Zhao Yunlan himself into the breach. And, really, that read far more strongly to me of “You want me to do what with a woman?”. Considering how fast Zhao Yunlan beats a parallel retreat on being confronted with a woman trying to confess her love, I really hesitate to take such behavior as a general indicator of low people skills.

Shen Wei is habitually autocratic, when he’s in Official Mode. He’s intensely reserved about personal things, unless of course he’s talking to Zhao Yunlan. He’s easily flustered when presented with hope where he thought there was none. But bad at people, or even at silly humans and their rules? I just don’t see it.

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Hmmm. I agree that Shen Wei has decent interpersonal skills -- he's quite reserved and formal and doesn't have much (any?) of a social life beyond work (until/except for Zhao Yunlan), but he's very functional professionally (both as the professor and as the BCE). And he is reasonably good at reading people and playing them when needed.

On the other hand, his intrapersonal skills are...limited, in that he doesn't seem to have a personal life until he meets Zhao Yunlan; he doesn't seem to have hobbies, he doesn't put a lot of value on his own life but is very willing to sacrifice himself to his causes. Most of the decisions he makes for himself are in the name of restraint, of denying and ignoring his own wants and needs as much as he can (except again when it comes to Zhao Yunlan). Most of the comments I've seen referring to Shen Wei's inability to "people" were more referring to this side of him -- not that he's bad with other people, but that he's bad at treating himself like a person.

ETA: also at least for me, I also am thinking about novel!Shen Wei, who literally isn't close to human and is erratic about how successfully he pretends to be one!

Edited 2019-07-13 02:37 (UTC)

I've seen referring to Shen Wei's inability to "people" were more referring to this side of him -- not that he's bad with other people, but that he's bad at treating himself like a person.

THIS! This is what I trying to formulate as a response to this post. Agree 100%.

My headcanon is that it's a result of his "power" of learning. He has seen a LOT of how other people treat each other and so he analyzes how they successfully interact and can replicate it. That is, his "how do human" is performative. He can play people like a violin b/c he is a strategist with the learned skills to pull it off. The Dixing autocratic side is no less so -- we see in YOHE that he's still coming into his role as a leader, it's something he's figuring out as he goes.

But he doesn't know how or hasn't thought it necessary to treat himself like a person. His intrapersonal skills are thus...lacking. IMHO.

(and now I'm bunnied for more of The Lost Primces series, oh no)

Ah, now that makes more sense, yes. I recall when Lys and I were first drowning in Nirvana in Fire and she mentioned that Jingyan is made of self-sacrifice and good cheekbones, which seems even more true of Shen Wei.

And that’s is absolutely why I’m holding off on the novel until I have the current arc of stories finished, because I /know/ it’s going to shift my sense of the characters!

Jingyan and Shen Wei definitely have things in common...though Shen Wei's damage is more (if not entirely) self-inflicted, while Jingyan had no real escape from his responsibilities. But yeah...those Wuhan boys with their giant luminous eyes and glass-cutting cheekbones! (both Wang Kai and Zhu Yilong are from the same city ^^)

The novel is...different? It's both more of a comedy and more of a melodrama than the show. And there are some fans who strongly feel the characterizations are so different that they should basically be treated like separate characters, which is not how I see it; to me the book and drama versions of WeiLan are more like AUs of each other, with different worldbuilding that emphasizes different aspects of their characters. I tend to write and meta for the drama (I don't know Chinese, have only read translations, so I don't feel like I have as firm a handle on the novelverse), but places where the drama characterization runs thin, I tend to default to the novel characterizations.

I agree that drama Shen Wei is good at human interactions. The only time he's terrible at human-ing is when it comes to knowing the emotional language of Zhao Yunlan, and don't we all just know in some way what that's like? lol.

Zhao Yunlan is kind of terrifyingly good at his masks, for certain, and it makes me want to beat Zhao Xinci over the head with something on a regular basis.

I agree! I think the show makes a point of showing him being good with students, friends (Dr Cheng!) and colleagues.

I feel like there's a bit of a tendency to hold him to a weirdly high standard compared to the other characters, and mark him down whenever he's perceived not to meet it.

And then there’s his reaction to being brought in for questioning, early on, which is to play every questioner like a violin

Hee! Yes! ♥ :-)

This! I mean, we get dumped headfirst into SID doings, so it’s not shown explicitly at the beginning, but he does seem to have a social network. I have a small headcanon that, when Zhao Yunlan entered the scene, Shen Wei abruptly withdrew from most all of his socializing with other professors in the prof-dorms, drinks with friends, etc. and that his entire network is half doting and half rolling their eyes about how hard Shen Wei obviously fell for this cop guy.

I have a small headcanon that, when Zhao Yunlan entered the scene, Shen Wei abruptly withdrew from most all of his socializing with other professors in the prof-dorms, drinks with friends, etc. and that his entire network is half doting and half rolling their eyes about how hard Shen Wei obviously fell for this cop guy.

Hee, that's awesome! Yes! <3

And, really, that read far more strongly to me of “You want me to do what with a woman?”

I admit I don't find the "she's a woman!" explanation for that height of awkwardness scene convincing, especially since some of his best interpersonal skills come out around Li Qian. But I'm also genuinely curious: do you see any indication that if Dr. Cheng were a man mourning the death of his brother, Shen Wei would have an easier time going up to him and offering comfort?

ETA: I was originally going to bounce off Xparrot's comment but then realised I'd missed a crucial line there, so putting it here separately after all. To me where "not knowing how to human" comes in is primarily with lack of experience. Shen Wei has a lot of experience with some things (all that war fighting, envoying, professoring) but there are IMO also parts of the human experience that he hasn't had that much to do with (partly through his self-denial and waiting tendencies, partly through the Zhao Yunlan single focus, partly through all the war fighting and envoying he's had to do), and IMO that shows when suddenly he's confronted with them. My prime example is his (IMO) profound Not Getting of what the deal is with Zhao Yunlan and his dad, and then despite being generally attuned to Zhao Yunlan handling Zhao Yunlan catching him at a tea date with Zhao Xinci not well (and knowing he's not handling it well). He's not terrible or the only person who would be flaily in such a moment, mind. But to me that falls into the "Shen Wei lacks some experiences that are directly tied to being closely emotionally tangled up with other humans so when he's closely emotionally tangled up with other humans, sometimes the inexperience shows". That doesn't negate all the ways he's good at handling himself, especially IMO in more structured situations, but to me that's a thing that's there.

But "not knowing how to human" is also a shorthand, which can be a bit broad strokes, and apparently this is one that can push people's buttons. *g*

Edited 2019-07-13 05:55 (UTC)

I would like to co-sign this comment. There is a subset of interpersonal skills Shen Wei is good at, a subset he's bad at, and there are situations where he doesn't know which set of interpersonal skills to use. (Also ones where he picks "wrong", such as that interrogation scene. He basically put a neon sign of "Hi, my name is Suspicious!" atop his head, when that probably wasn't his intent.)

The whole "how does human" thing is to me more of an acknowledgement that his interpersonal skills profile is very uneven, plus the fact that since he's an alien from ten thousand years ago, he did have to actually learn all of those modern social skills/acceptable social reactions as an adult/late teen, instead of as a child by osmosis.

He basically put a neon sign of "Hi, my name is Suspicious!" atop his head, when that probably wasn't his intent.

That's a really interesting point. That scene is brought up a lot (correctly, IMO!) in the context of Shen Wei knowing how to read people, and it is very clear that he knows how to push Zhu Hong and Chu Shuzhi's buttons here expertly. So I think it totally does say that about his interpersonal skills. But this could also have very much blown up in his face if there'd been someone observing this who is as smart as Zhao Yunlan, but not as personally into / instinctively trusting of Shen Wei, at least for protecting his professor persona.

This is a scene I'm still chewing on now and then because it's IMO one of the few times we see Shen Wei in an arrogant mode, and it always struck me as a little unexpected a choice. So this is an interesting angle to add to that pondering...

But this could also have very much blown up in his face if there'd been someone observing this who is as smart as Zhao Yunlan, but not as personally into / instinctively trusting of Shen Wei, at least for protecting his professor persona.
Indeed! It's a bit as if he's hammering with an excellent hammer and wonderful technique – except the thing he's fastening is actually a screw. (I suppose he had the "I'm the Envoy, they can't really hurt me" thing at the back of his mind, but his professor persona could still have easily been ruined.)

About it potentially blowing up in his face - so could defending Dixingren to Zhao Yunlan, right at the start, and getting involved in SID cases left and right, before and after this. He's constantly showing he knows more than he should, that he IS more than he seems to be. I don't think he's unaware of that, or doing it without meaning to.

He's constantly showing he knows more than he should, that he IS more than he seems to be. I don't think he's unaware of that, or doing it without meaning to.

You think he means to set off Zhao Yunlan's spidey senses that Professor Shen is more than he seems to be? To me that flies directly in the face of his obfuscations, 'explanations', and 'sticking to his story even when it is obviously futile', and the entirety of his arc up to episode 15. I'm a bit stunned by the suggestion, tbh. :-)

I think it's a risk he's consciously taking. To me, he's stuck between wanting to get closer to Zhao Yunlan and wanting to maintain his distance, for a variety of reasons, so his actions come out looking contradictory sometimes, all push and pull. But I really don't think he actually wants to be seen as just Professor Shen, not by Zhao Yunlan. (And he may not know how it came about, but Kunlun clearly knew him ...)

I think it's a risk he's consciously taking.

Sure! The safest thing to do if he really absolutely wanted to take no risk of discovery would be to keep more distance. (Maybe go on sabbatical, though I guess that takes too long to come around. ^^)

If you're not saying he's deliberately trying to be found out as the Envoy (which I would say flies strongly against canon), then IDK where we're disagreeing. *g* Yes, other choices he makes besides that interrogation scene could go wrong for him - and in a manner of speaking, they do go 'wrong' vis-a-vis the goal of 'must not be found out as the Envoy'. (They go right for him in the grand scheme of things because they get him closer to Zhao Yunlan, and being found out as the Envoy isn't actually the disaster he seemed to fear.)

My main point, piggybacking off what

extrapenguin's observation: I always found it surprising that he goes arrogant towards Chu Shuzhi and Zhu Hong and not 'meek professor' (which is definitely something he has in his toolkit, and is currently still the persona he's pushing towards Zhao Yunlan). I sometimes chew on what his reason might be, and have some thoughts, but no baseline personal 'true reading'. And it could have gotten the SID on his ass much harder; maybe he knew that, maybe he didn't, maybe he knew he was taking that risk but whatever his thinking behind why he took this approach in the interrogation was more important than that risk.

Hee! Looks like we're not actually disagreeing, then. :)

My main point was just that this isn't only risk of exposure he deliberately takes (because as you say, if he really wanted no risk he'd keep his distance), so the risk-taking here isn't inconsistent with his behaviour otherwise.

I think why in this particular case the "it could blow up in his face" part stands out to me - why I went 'oh!' at ExtraPenguin's comment - is that in this particular case, I'm not sure what he thought he would gain, and why he preferred this over a 'safer' meek professor approach. (With the other risks he takes, I generally see the benefit, though I don't have a list handy of whether there are other cases that might map onto this one more.) And I basically don't assume he's always, 100% failsafe calculating correctly when he's trying to achieve A by doing B, so to me "he miscalculated, but no harm done in the end" or "he had a wobble and had indignation interfere with the smoothest strategy" are possible interpretations.

And I basically don't assume he's always, 100% failsafe calculating correctly when he's trying to achieve A by doing B

No, of course not! And sometimes he gets it very wrong, like with the wedding disaster. But I don't think we can call his choices during the interrogation scene a miscalculation, since it doesn't actually go wrong?

What he'd have to gain ... I think part of it is testing the SID, and part of it is showing off to the audience (because he has to know ZYL is watching). Beyond that, I need to think about this more! There's a lot to unpack in that scene. But, hm, I'm not 100% sure that, having turned up in the middle of a crime scene like that, playing too innocent would actually be much safer/less suspicious ...

(On the third hand, that reminds me of something else - his behaviour during the mugging. He's perfectly willing to play along, at least until they go for his pendant, but he doesn't for a moment pretend he's scared. He draws some weird lines sometimes!)

I'm bringing more hands! *g*

But I don't think we can call his choices during the interrogation scene a miscalculation, since it doesn't actually go wrong?

I'm not calling it a definitive miscalculation, no. But what this discussion has made a bit clearer to me - that oh! moment - is that it looks to me at this point (caveatcakes below) like he's taking something of an unnecessary risk. No, it does not go wrong, because Zhao Yunlan has already decided to trust him. Yes, he knew Zhao Yunlan was watching, and not some hypothetical chief who is as smart as Zhao Yunlan but maybe not as trusting of him. But still, at this point in their relationship, I don't think Shen Wei can count on the fact that Zhao Yunlan will look at him playing a villain for half an hour and then be convinced by an earnest declaration. It's at the very least a big gamble, for no real gain I can see. (I realise putting these two things - playing a villain for half an hour, then asking Zhao Yunlan to trust him - in close proximity might make someone go, 'he's testing Zhao Yunlan', but I don't think that's how he rolls towards Zhao Yunlan.) It's clear to me in that scene that he wants Zhao Yunlan to trust him, so making himself look more suspicious at length seems like a strange tactical choice.

Which is what makes me wonder if there was something else going on that isn't "the most rational approach I can take to achieve my aim", and something like ego or indignation played a part in the way he chose to approach that pre-Zhao Yunlan interrogation. (Which is how I got to "a potential miscalculation that ended up not having a negative impact".)

Beyond that, I need to think about this more! There's a lot to unpack in that scene.

These are my caveatcakes: it really is a 'strange' scene to me (not bad, not OOC, but 'takes more work to slot in') and I was serious in my first comment on this; I regularly still find it worth chewing over, and I also need to think about it more!

He's perfectly willing to play along, at least until they go for his pendant, but he doesn't for a moment pretend he's scared. He draws some weird lines sometimes!

That's a really good observation! FWIW and at the risk of opening another can of worms and hijacking

branchandroot's post even more - hi,

branchandroot ^_^), he always read as a little 'scared' to me, but not for a second towards the muggers or visible to the muggers. I think he's worried this could go wrong, basically, not for him but for these guys, and that could be very unfortunate for where he currently is with Zhao Yunlan. BUT this aside, he is totally not playing along making himself look scared to the muggers / of the actual mugging. This fits in with some other stuff I was recently discussing with someone but now for the life of me I can't remember what the canon issue was...

Edited 2019-07-13 15:46 (UTC)

(Please, feel free! This is all great fun to read.)

Just to make sure - how literally do you mean "playing the villain"? Do you read him as actively making himself look like a villain? Because I wouldn't describe it that way ...

and something like ego or indignation played a part in the way he chose to approach that pre-Zhao Yunlan interrogation

Ego and trollish instincts? *g*

This fits in with some other stuff I was recently discussing with someone but now for the life of me I can't remember what the canon issue was...

So curious about this now! Let me know if you remember. :)

No, sorry, shorthand. *g* I should know better by now! I meant that he acts in a way not designed to make him look less suspicious, and very likely to make him look more suspicious. If you're found at the scene of a crime, especially after being found loosely associated with a bunch of other previous crimes, actively and blatantly fucking with the heads of two police officers and looking like you're enjoying that you're good at that is... like ExtraPenguin says, he makes himself look like a suspect - as a byproduct rather than an active aim, though.

So curious about this now! Let me know if you remember. :)

Will do! I think it had something to do with ego in general but I can't puzzle it out until I remember what ep / canon moment it was about.

as a byproduct rather than an active aim

Oh, good, then we're not actually reading him wildly differently. I'm relieved! *g*

*thoughtful* I actually do think he would have had an easier time with a man, yes, but I also think that feeling is shaped by how the show writers deployed his interactions with men versus women. We’re allowed to see Shen Wei interacting with men with a weighted or sober emotional throughline (Chu, Wu, Ye Zun, the Regent for that matter), while this particular moment of Dr. Cheng’s grief is interrupted by playing for an audience laugh.

Edited (Wretched spellchecker, leave me alone) 2019-07-13 15:41 (UTC)

while this particular moment of Dr. Chen’s grief is interrupted by playing for an audience laugh.

There is that. To be perfectly honest, if that scene was not in the show, I wouldn't miss it. >.< I really don't point to it for "Shen Wei's awkwardness" because I'm overly fond of it; I think it is written to be funny, in a totally off-key moment. I found the shoving of Zhao Yunlan cute the first time when I was hyperfixated on them, and then cringed every other time I watched it. (I do think it speaks to a part of Shen Wei's characterisation, though, so I don't think it should be disregarded as 'that one weird off-key scene that's just there for the lulz', so, I'm stuck with it.)

Okay I came rereading these threads from forever ago, and: The moment with Dr Cheng's grief? Shen Wei didn't go comfort her because he considered himself responsible for Zu Ma's death. (He broke the phone, then later said Zu Ma's dying because the phone is gone.) He pushes Zhao Yunlan to do it because at that moment he can't do it.

I think he has really good professional interpersonal skills. He is a caring teacher who encourages and empathizes with his students and colleagues. And as part of his Black-Cloaked Envoy duties, I think he's also pretty skilled at verbal sparring/questioning that kind of come hand-in-hand with chasing down criminals.

But I also think he struggles with anything deeper and more intimate and letting people in. Even Chu Shuzhi who he trusts and works with doesn't really count as much of a friend. Even with Zhao Yunlan, who he loves, he doesn't always succeed at communicating or navigating the ups and downs of their relationship. I think Zhao Yunlan's emotional maturity and patience plays a huge part in how they are able to be successful in the show.

The situation with Dr. Cheng I do find a little unusual, because he seems to have no issues comforting Li Qian for her loss. But maybe it's the difference between colleagues vs someone he feels he has a mentorship relationship with.

You know, I don't think Zhao Yunlan is that much better at actually letting people in? Intimacy is hard for both of them. Zhao Yunlan is much better with other stuff, but with that, they're not so far apart.

Absolutely this! The way I read it, ZYL is just as much of an introvert, and almost as responsible for their issues in miscommunications, as SW. I think it's also the reason that he was so much smoother and more suave at the beginning of their relationship, when most of his actions were manipulative or had a stronger intention to seduce than to interact on a serious emotional level, than later on. For example, the way he reacted to the eye-healing, while perfectly understandable, did not in any way convey to SW that the reason for his fury was that he didn't want SW to hurt himself for his sake, but rather that he was annoyed about being lied to and concerned about being indebted. I don't blame him, of course, and doubtless the censorship had something to do with it (I don't think "how dare you try to drain away your life when I want to spend the rest of mine with you!" would have gotten past the censors ^^), but the point stands. And SW's barriers are high enough that nothing short of a direct statement would ever be able to get above them.

For example, the way he reacted to the eye-healing, while perfectly understandable, did not in any way convey to SW that the reason for his fury was that he didn't want SW to hurt himself for his sake, but rather that he was annoyed about being lied to and concerned about being indebted.

Good point! Zhao Yunlan definitely is responsible for some missteps and miscommunications, and I think you're right that he's much more comfortable when he has another goal as a cover. And he has a hard time letting go of that and be genuine.

That much seems to be true on the romantic front. Zhao Yunlan has never had a relationship he considered to be a serious/deep until Shen Wei, and even at the end before he gave up his life, he's lamenting "Oh, maybe my being single for so long was because this was to be my fate."

But it feels like Zhao Yunlan has deeper general connections in general. His friendship with Da Qing especially feels so genuine and trusting. And he has his found family with the SID. I guess that's why I get the impression that while he's never found much romantic success, he is better at letting people in when he deems them trustworthy enough.

Completely agreed on the romantic part, and Da Qing! But about the SID team as a found family, I was just talking to

china_shop about this the other day, and I don't think Zhao Yunlan is actually that close to anyone but Da Qing at the start of the show. Not that he doesn't care about them, but he's still keeping them at arm's length emotionally, and hides what's going on in his head/his heart. He projects a cheerful and somewhat callous persona, and no one really knows what's underneath. (Witness them talking about him being cold, early on.) But by the end of the show they really are a family, and they all genuinely know him. I think that's a big part of Zhao Yunlan's character arc over the course of the show, actually ...

OMG I'm really really late to this party and I was just reading all the discussion I missed with interest when I came across this.

he's lamenting "Oh, maybe my being single for so long was because this was to be my fate."

I don't think he's lamenting - I don't think he regrets a thing about being single. He's never been interested in traditional marriage and he makes that very clear in that one taxi ride. I read this one as semi-humorous bravado, nothing more. :)

Forgive me for the belated disagreement.

It may be me osmosing something from the novel, but it felt like he was a little lonely and unhappy that he wasn't able to make a deeper romantic connection, whether he made it official with a marriage or not. (And in that moment, the one person he did fall in love with has died ;_; so he's right back where he started.)

I guess we're just reading the same given text slightly differently. I felt like he was all out of fucks to give about hypothetical romantic relationships, now that Shen Wei is gone. I really thought it was more 'okay, great, at least I'm not leaving behind a grieving widow and eight hungry children, yay.'

But who knows!! :D

*ponders* That’s a really interesting point, because Zhao Yunlan also reads to me as having a great deal of difficulty letting people in. He shows emotion far more easily, but whether that emotion is genuine... well, whenever he’s smiling I pretty much tick the box for “this is manipulation”. He does demonstrate trust in others more easily, at least for the extremely limited subset of his team, but of course that’s what makes his see-saw of trust/don’t-trust with Shen Wei so poignant, especially when Shen Wei is standing there wearing a mask but still holding out his heart in his hand. They’re just a fascinating study in parallels and opposites.

(Thank you for such a thought-provoking comment!)

...but of course that’s what makes his see-saw of trust/don’t-trust with Shen Wei so poignant, especially when Shen Wei is standing there wearing a mask but still holding out his heart in his hand...

I think you just broke my heart with that line! A perfect summary of their relationship, and why, in a way, I don't 100% believe they were a couple in the drama like they were in the novel (no matter how much I want to!) They're a bit too similar re: masks and boundaries and insurmountable walls of introversion compared to their novel selves to ever have been able to get together. Heck, if they'd been better at communication, they might both have survived the finale! (Not that I'm complaining; I personally liked the ending, heartbroken though I was.)

I think Zhao Yunlan has the "I am schmoozing with people because a Chief has gotta do what a Chief has gotta do" smile, and he also has a genuine smile for the people he cares about, like when he's snuggling with Da Qing on the couch, or when he sees Shen Wei for the first time after his eyes are cured.

The first bit of cat-and-mouse games he had with Shen Wei definitely had a quality of him wanting to trust Shen Wei, and being drawn to Shen Wei in a way he's never felt before. But also still maintaining his suspicion - I call his approach back then flirt-terrogations :P. I think they never truly get past that until the time travel occurs, and by then things have gone to hell too much for them to communicate. On some levels, I wish the bench relaxation scene had happened after the time travel!

I love what you said about Shen Wei wearing a mask and not revealing all of himself, but whole-heartedly loving Zhao Yunlan without any doubt.

Even Chu Shuzhi who he trusts and works with doesn't really count as much of a friend.

I always assumed that was on Chu Shuzhi? In episode 2, at the first private meeting we see between them, isn't Shen Wei all, "We could be friends," and Chu Shuzhi all, "I am your very loyal servant, sir!"? Or am I misremembering?

(This is not a new problem for the Envoy, after all. Maybe one of his main motivations in choosing to become a professor was to meet more people/make more friends?)

Yeah, that might be! Lao Chu has too much of a hero worship complex for Heipao to really have an equal relationship between them. Poor lonely Envoy! That was a problem he had in the past too and why Kunlun meant so much to him!

And it's really interesting that in ep 4, even Lao Chu is actually concerned about the Envoy not confiding in anyone and being all alone (and he doesn't mean himself).

I don't read Shen Wei as bad at people either, except a bit inexperienced at close personal relationships.

A reason I could think of that he maybe wouldn't want to comfort Cheng Xinyan is that he might not want to give her the wrong idea - maybe she had a crush on him when they were at uni perhaps?

Oh, I like that headcanon. I could easily see Cheng Xingyan’s wry sort of affection as being the shape of a recovered crush, who’s probably going to tease him mercilessly about Zhao Yunlan as soon as they don’t have a crisis going on.

This is how I read it, too! Though not so much that Dr. Cheng has/had a crush on SW as ZYL thinking there had been something going on between them back in the day (probably cos he can't believe that such a catch as SW could have gone thousands of years without a single romantic relationship ^^). Remember the weird way he laughed when SW introduced her as "a friend of mine from college"? And when she was crying, the look ZYL gave SW was like, "So, you not gonna comfort your former crush/GF?" and SW going, "She is not my former anything, and just for your idiotic teasing I'm gonna make you comfort her instead!" I found that scene hilarious, tbh, inappropriate though it may have been considering the situation with Zu Ma.

ETA: Sorry for spamming your post with so many comments! I should probably shut up now, but I have so many feels about Shen Wei that haven't yet found a sufficient outlet, so...

Edited 2019-07-13 16:42 (UTC)

(No, no, feel free! It’s been forever since I hosted a nice discussion. ^_^)

Thank you so much for this post, because your thoughts are my thoughts. ♥

About Dr Cheng, I don't think it's about her being a woman, though. And I think if Zhao Yunlan hadn't been there he would have gone and comforted her. But since Zhao Yunlan is there, he doesn't have to. (I feel like people conflate "doesn't like doing x" with "is bad at doing x" a lot, when it comes to things like this.)

Edited 2019-07-13 12:53 (UTC)

*clinks glasses*

I definitely do think that scene should be held a little outside any estimation of the characters, if only because it was pushed to comic relief and to do that often means tilting the characters a bit. Then, too, Shen Wei’s comfort tends to be quiet—more a matter of being there than performing consolation. I read that as the exact opposite of Zhao Yunlan’s approach, which is to flawlessly perform social expectations while always holding the deepest part of himself apart (I blame Zhao Xinci so very much). So that whole scene also feels to me like Zhao Yunlan expecting Shen Wei to do what he would, and Shen Wei being completely unprepared to do any such thing.

And, as I wound up pondering above, I really feel like Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan are about equivalent in both their capabilities and their difficulties in re interpersonal relations—just in ways that are unfortunately complementary. They’re both wearing masks most of the time, and they both have a real problem relying on other people. So it’s fascinating to watch how readily they rely on each other, while still wearing those masks so much of the time.

Shen Wei’s comfort tends to be quiet—more a matter of being there than performing consolation. I read that as the exact opposite of Zhao Yunlan’s approach, which is to flawlessly perform social expectations while always holding the deepest part of himself apart

Oooh, what a great observation!

I really feel like Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan are about equivalent in both their capabilities and their difficulties in re interpersonal relations—just in ways that are unfortunately complementary. They’re both wearing masks most of the time, and they both have a real problem relying on other people. So it’s fascinating to watch how readily they rely on each other, while still wearing those masks so much of the time.

Yeah, I completely agree with this, too. They're both hiding so much about themselves, in very different ways, it's amazing they come together and fit together and work together so well. ♥

(I do wonder how much of that is a function of the time loop, and the fact that they both first encounter a version of the other who's already in love with them. It would all probably be much harder for them if they first met in a more linear way!)

Btw, totally friending you now. :)

The time loop does make for a really wonderful circuit of /both/ of them being the first to say ‘yes, of course I trust you with my life’... precisely because the other one did it first!

which is to flawlessly perform social expectations

Or of course to flawlessly smash his way all through the social expectations - he's a master manipulator of social expectations to suit his aims. :)

Yes! I gotta say, I love the first handful of eps, because he’s really walking that line of not wanting to reveal his actual (dangerous) identity, but /definitely/ wanting to draw Zhao Yunlan’s interest, and I love the way he so deliberately does flout “mild-mannered professor” expectations.

Sort of in reference to xparrot's comment, above:

I think one of the biggest problems is that people try to equate/generalise drama characterisation and novel characterisation. Neither Shen Wei nor Zhao Yunlan are even remotely the same people in the drama compared to the novel, and I firmly believe that we should keep the two canons entirely separate in order to avoid mischaracterisation. I personally get a bit annoyed when people write drama!ZYL as a shameless playboy (though I do agree with the reading that he's bi and has been 'round the block a bit ^^), or SW as an obsessive, possessive dark creature; there is no evidence whatsoever for either of those traits in show canon, imo. Novel Shen Wei is a demon, a creature who is extremely different from a human in terms of biological makeup, psychology, upbringing (such as it were), moral values, etc., etc. So it makes sense for him to fail at being human (in fact, I don't believe he should even try to hide his nature, because why should he?), but not for drama!SW who is, essentially, from a cousin species of humans. Dixingren are shown in drama canon, over and over, to not be all that different from Haixingren, especially when it comes to emotions and relationships. Heck, I'd call it one of the major themes of the show, so it doesn't make sense to me to read the most important Dixingren in the story as someone ineptly pretending to be human for the sake of his lover!

To answer the OP:

I totally agree that Shen Wei's interpersonal skills are perfectly normal! However, he does flounder a bit re: ZYL, not because he's bad at understanding him or empathising with him, but because he does seem to be new to the concept of selfishly coveting something/someone for himself where previously his various duties were his only love. So he seems to think only about how best to protect ZYL and make him happy, regardless of the cost to himself; essentially, I think, viewing their interactions through the lens of "responsibility/duty," which is familiar to him and which he's good at, not realising that a relationship (whether it's based on romantic love or platonic, however one wishes to read their drama dynamic, which imo can go either way) is a two-way street and that sharing burdens is an essential part of a personal relationship as opposed to a professional one. Hence the adamant secret-keeping and self-sacrificing, and the frequent head-butting with ZYL over the same.

Excellent points, all. I do find it fascinating how strongly the drama is in dialogue with the novel, but the world building, cosmology, and character building all do seem quite distinct, as you say.

(Which is, me being me, why I had to go and try to work out a plausible fusion of them, but that’s an expanding story arc for another day.)

Definitely agree that the issue of letting anyone else take on part of his burden is one of Shen Wei’s major issues (and also Zhao Yunlan’s, for that matter, which is delightful irony).

Yeah, but the thing is, I don't think ZYL's issues are about letting other people take on the burden, as such; apart from sacrifices of life and limb (which he rightfully won't ask of anyone else), he seems perfectly comfortable delegating even major responsibilities to the other SID members. Which is what makes him a good team leader, as opposed to SW who - I believe not even by choice, but due to his vast difference in power/status compared to other Dixingren and the fact that he was practically raised into the role of military commander (and an army isn't really a team) - has always being a solitary player who doesn't really trust anyone to perform his duties except himself.

ZYL's problem is mainly concerned with emotional expression, as evidenced by his issues with rejecting Zhu Hong until he was literally forced into it by the plot, his weird speech about not being able to fall in love (to SW himself!) in the taxi, the fact that his instant response to the more emotional moments is either flippancy or sarcasm, etc. OTOH, SW doesn't seem to have any problem expressing emotion: he apologises when he's in the wrong, when he's furious about people shirking their duties you can see it radiating off him in waves, he's capable of genuine (non-sarcastic) humour, and his love for ZYL practically fills the screen every time they share a scene. This doesn't mean he isn't very reticent about the actual details of his personal life, because of course he is, but imo emotional expression as and when needed and extroversion aren't the same thing at all; ZYL is an extrovert in a performative sense but very few of his true feelings are ever revealed, after all.

So it's like they're both utterly reserved and solitary, but in two completely different domains. Which, while fascinating from a purely logical standpoint, is also kind of sad when you consider the emotional side of things.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Actually quite good people skills

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