language and history: -dono

[branchandroot]

Thoughts apropos Japanese titles.

If I've got all this straight, then the reason -dono is usually described as "less formal" than -sama is not that is is in any way less respectful. Rather, it is more intimate. Tracing back to its origin as the title form of "tono" (lord, specifically your own lord), addressing someone as Name-dono lays claim to a relationship with them. A feudal one, to be precise and, if I'm not mistaken, one with a certain amount of implied rank since only one of the warrior class would be entering into it.

So when, in Ouran, the twins call Tamaki "Tono", it's a play on the royalty motif and subtly reinforces the fact that all the kids at that school are upper class.

And when, in Rurouni Kenshin, Kenshin addresses Kaoru as "Kaoru-dono" he is implicitly laying claim to a position as a retainer of her house. This one actually fascinates me, because that could be seen as very counter-revolutionary of him (the feudal forms being one of the things the winning Imperialists set about expurgating as too old-fashioned and, more critically, too likely to provide a power base outside of centralized government channels). And at the same time, it could also be seen as an interesting comment on his childhood. Kenshin was born a commoner, after all, not one of the warrior class; as such he isn't eligible to have a lord, not in that particular relationship-sense. So he could, at the same time, be being conservative and old fashioned and also very 'uppity' by claiming a retainer-relationship.

All this was actually occasioned by my frustration that there is no good way to translate the way Basil of KHR speaks into English.

Comments

[annotated_em]

Sometimes I really do think English could do with a few of the linguistic conventions that Japanese has... if only there was a way to import them without the adherence to hardcore hierarchy at the same time.

Alas.

[branchandroot]

Yeah, it would be fun, if only. Ah, well.

[kaigou]

We have them, but they're regional and require tone to add the nuances, instead of the word being a pretty straight-forward meaning (outside of the flips of sarcasm). Or more like, we have them, but in English, it's something buried in the language, not necessarily spelled out, but still regional. Like the difference between calling someone precious ("oh, she's just so precious") which usually operates on a level of familial or long-time-friend intimacy but only from elder to younger; a child wouldn't refer to her god-mother as precious. For a woman you've just met, who's older than you, to call you precious means she's kinda taking the same claims on a relationship (of a certain intimacy) that Kenshin is doing, if not so carefully spelled out; I daresay most folks wouldn't be entirely aware of why they go along (or get cranky at it), only that they have this specific reaction to someone doing that.

Like the way I get very cranky if someone new-to-me calls me by the diminutive version of my name + nickname. That's common enough in the South, but it's still only something that's done from elder to younger. I don't like it when older strangers do it, but if my step-daughter does it, I don't find it funny at all, but incredibly offensive, if not outright infuriating. Japan may have the benefit of spelling it out -- that is, Kaoru is likely well aware of the implications of the -dono suffix, but if I met an older man at her age and he called me 'Miss H', I would take it with the same respect levels -- because that's lower-to-higher, as opposed to 'Missy' or even diminutive-version, which are both definitely higher-to-lower.

aaaaand there I go rambling again. Sorry. I was trying to read this article about intersectionality until I knocked up against epistemic and aphoria and went OMG JARGON IDEK OMG and decided I needed chocolate instead.

[zombiecookie]

I think a lot of what you're saying isn't purely regional, at least when it comes to the usage of something like Miss. It isn't used commonly up north, but it has the same connotations of being polite, lower-to-higher language.

We think tend to show relationships more using what comes after a title though (if we use it). There is a big difference between Mr. Davidson and Mr. D, even if both are more polite than using a first name.

[annotated_em]

*laughing* Point well taken. I was thinking more in terms of the difficult of conveying those Japanese gradations in written English, and less about the actual usage of other markers within spoken US English.

...

Is it really sad that "epistemic" no longer pings me as jargony? I've been in grad school too long.

[petronia]

English did and does - 21st century American doesn't, but that's not at all the same thing. XD (Says this Canadian.) There are chasms of difference between "Lady Beaumont", "Lady Clara", "my lady", and "m'lady".

[petronia]

Edit because I did read kaigou's comment above: 21st century Yankee American.

[annotated_em]

*contemplates* True enough, and an excellent point; I should have clarified that I meant US English. I wasn't precisely thinking in terms of titles/rank, exactly--more the general gradations of honorifics, and how it's difficult to convey those gradations in written English, unless one has a very deft hand with characterization. *wry* Not that any of that made it into my original comment.

[dragonwolf]

US English certainly doesn't spell it out like Japanese does, but I think there are a lot more implied relational contexts within US English than most people realize.

As others have mentioned, we have the more obvious titles (Miss Davison, Mr. James, Mrs. Ericson, Dr. Reed, etc), as well as the also obvious generic no-name titles (Miss, Ma'am, Sir), but also, we have more subtle levels of relational contexts through the use of things like nicknames. For example, my sister's name is Samantha. Most of her friends call her Sammy, which shows a certain level of familiarity. Acquaintances would be more likely to call her Samantha, or Sam (and she'd probably give them a death glare if they called her Sammy and wasn't her friend), because they don't have the same level of familiarity.

I think US English's use of relational contexts might actually be more complex and in-depth than the Japanese, primarily because it might not just be a regional thing (I've found the South and country and conservative/"old-fashioned" areas use more formalities, and the city and liberal/"modern" areas tend to be more "friendly," but that's my limited experience), but also a personal thing, depending on how generic we're talking about.

[branchandroot]

I tend to agree that the gradations are at least equally complex in both countries, each in its own way, but I also agree very much with Em: they aren't equivalent and attempting to translate one into the other when writing anime fic in English we can't use most of what might seem like the most direct translations of the Japanese terms/forms without sounding absolutely ridiculous in the English language context. To match the impact we have to fiddle around and try to find contextual or even emotional equivalents and the cultures are shaped differently enough that it rarely sounds "natural" in the setting. (For example, the thing I was wrestling with before I jotted this down, using "thee" and "thou" as a translation of archaic/old-fogey language just doesn't work because those are downright unnatural in most modern dialects of English and the character is definitely modern; the best compromise I could come up with was not having the kid use any contractions, but that doesn't really convey the same nuance. Gngh.)

[dragonwolf]

Oh indeed, there aren't any direct translations between the two. I think in cases like Japanese to English, it's best to just leave the suffixes in and either provide footnotes/explanations of the suffix or assume the reader knows the suffix. Worst case (assuming a half-way intelligent reader and a decent author that provides context), it's often pretty easy to at least get the idea of the meaning of the suffix from the context (as well as the meaning of and the relationship to other suffixes), even if the guessed meaning isn't perfect. That is one advantage to the straightforwardness of Japanese formalities. I've found this works especially well with characters that are either Japanese (either in Japan, or a Japanese in an English-speaking country), or heavily influenced by Japanese language/culture, as it would be natural for those formalities to be carried over in their speech.

I think it goes the same for just about any other language for which there isn't really a translation (hence the various words that cross from one language to another).

[dancing_serpent]

A feudal one, to be precise and, if I'm not mistaken, one with a certain amount of implied rank since only one of the warrior class would be entering into it.

That's how I understand it, as well. Kyou Kara Maou is lovely to watch in that regard - all those different relationships between the various nobles are made very clear that way. The sub doesn't do it justice, though, which is a pity. Really a pity! Many of the respectful titles are simply left untranslated/unmentioned.

A good -dono example in the series: A character, who has the same claim/right to the throne of a certain country, addresses the (self-instated) current ruler with -dono instead of -heika.

I will ask my Japanese professor to clarify it for me, though, just to be sure. *g*

[branchandroot]

Oo, that's a fascinating example. That's... got all sorts of little connotations then, doesn't it? A sort of implied abdication by placing himself in a particular liege relationship with the one who took the throne. *sparkles quietly with analytical glee*

[dancing_serpent]

*g* That example implies sooooooo much, it makes my heart dance with glee when I watch that scene. Because in this particular case, it's perfectly clear that using -dono was certainly meant as an insult - but because of his own standing he could do so without appearing disrespectful.

I could talk endlessly about the politics and relationships in that series, especially in regards of which characters use which honorifics and titles. There are some gorgeous examples of both disrespect and polite speech, but as I said, the sub disregards them most of the time.

[mitsuhachi]

If you made a post about that, I'd sure find it shiny. Y'know. Just sayin.

[dancing_serpent]

Oh, argh! *snicker* You know, in my head I've been creating a graphic chart of the KKM relationships/titles all afternoon and called myself stupid for it. But now...maybe I should do it for real. *g*

[mitsuhachi]

And the brother who DOES call him 'heika' gets a nickname (man-who-named-me) in response and frequent requests not to use the title.

One of my favorite things about japanese is the explicit and precise way people can discuss the intimacy/formality of their relationships through names.

[dancing_serpent]

And the brother who DOES call him 'heika' gets a nickname (man-who-named-me) in response and frequent requests not to use the title.

*g* I was actually referring to Conrad calling Ranjeel/Lanzhil of Dai Shimaron -dono instead of -heika.

[mitsuhachi]

I thought that wolfram did the same thing to yuuri? At the beginning? Maybe I'm on crack.

[dancing_serpent]

Nope, Wolfram skipped the honorifics right from the start and was openly insulting him, calling him names and so on.

But what Conrad did with Ranjeel, that was lovely!

[prillalar]

Very interesting! Thanks for that.

[branchandroot]

*tips hat* My pleasure; I was just wandering down the thought-trail and figured I should write it down.