Roy, Ed and pedophilia
Feb. 16th, 2004 10:33 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
branchandrootSo, a post Trudy made got me thinking once again about one of the things that squicks (or possibly kinks) people about Roy/Ed: the age difference and Ed's youth.
So, in present-story-time Ed is 15 and Roy is 29.
And?
Most fiction deals with either Everyman characters or extraordinary characters. In the case of FMA, and these two in particular, they are definitely extraordinary. In those circumstances, I'd say it's more enlightening to look at the personalities than immediately hyperventilate over the numbers. Anything else is too reminiscent of the height rule. The mindset that assigns dominance based purely on inches strikes me as pretty much the same one that assigns naivete/stupidity/perversion based purely on years.
So let's start with Ed. Is he innocent and/or naive? On most topics, I'd venture a resounding NO, not by the time he's 15. However, based on his reaction to Psiren, the only time we've seen him dealing with sexuality of any kind so far, his flusterment does seem to indicate that he's not cynical, jaded, or knowing on that topic. So in a sexual situation we might expect 15 year old Ed to lose some of his typical combination of fire and sang froid, and become more hesitant. Possibly even freaked out, depending on the circumstances.
Does this set him up as some kind of innocent victim of sexual predation? I really kind of doubt it. For one thing, if he didn't have some reason to a) notice and b) accept an advance I'm not sure it would even get past his focus to register at all. (You have to admit, Psiren had all the subtlty of a sledgehammer.) Roy gets past his focus, all right, but Ed's awareness of him is very adversarial--which gets us to the other thing. Ed is more than capable of taking care of himself. You notice he gets over his flusterment with Psiren and carries through his chosen response without getting sidetracked again.
On to Roy. This is actually the part I consider most problematic--what reason Roy would have to be sexually attracted to a 15 year old that he's known since the kid was 12. Of course, Ed's pure jaw-dropping gorgeousness is a darn good place to start, but would that overcome Roy's presumed awareness that Ed is rather emotionally innocent about romance and sexuality? I don't think so; I don't think Roy is the kind to take advantage of Ed's inexperience (which a manipulator like him probably could), and I certainly don't think Roy would endanger their working relationship by making a serious pass unless he had some solid indication that Ed would welcome it and be able to keep working with Roy effectively. He's generally too practical.
That is why I tend to write Ed older in my Roy/Ed fics.
Is this how I feel about real life liasons with this kind of age gap? Why yes, in fact, it is. It depends on the personalities. Most teenagers do not, fortunately for them, have the life-experience that would catch them up to someone twice their age. That is what makes most cases of sexual relationships with those age figures fine examples of predation.
I would point out that in most cases, it's up to the partner with greater experience to realize that fact.
I mean, when I was 19 and had an unspeakable crush on a really cool professor (almost exactly twice my age at the time), I would have been perfectly happy to go to bed with him given the slightest opportunity. He was the one who had to be responsible and restrained and think about whether it would be a good idea to sleep with a student who was a) still pretty damn innocent and b) rather messed up into the bargain. Thank goodness he did, too, because it would have been a bad idea.
Hmmm. I hadn't thought about it before, but it's quite possible that part of my liking for Roy stems from his similarity to that professor. *collapses laughing* What a thought!
Eh, while we're on the subject, this is similar to why I'm happy to write present-time Roy/Hughes, provided Gracia knows about it. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary I like to think Gracia has enough faith in Hughes' obvious deep and abiding love for her to not worry about him occasionally sleeping with his best friend, that Hughes loves his wife far too much for her to be anything but first in his heart, and that Roy would be fine with all this.
Hey, I said I like to pick the non-depressing options to write about.
So, in present-story-time Ed is 15 and Roy is 29.
And?
Most fiction deals with either Everyman characters or extraordinary characters. In the case of FMA, and these two in particular, they are definitely extraordinary. In those circumstances, I'd say it's more enlightening to look at the personalities than immediately hyperventilate over the numbers. Anything else is too reminiscent of the height rule. The mindset that assigns dominance based purely on inches strikes me as pretty much the same one that assigns naivete/stupidity/perversion based purely on years.
So let's start with Ed. Is he innocent and/or naive? On most topics, I'd venture a resounding NO, not by the time he's 15. However, based on his reaction to Psiren, the only time we've seen him dealing with sexuality of any kind so far, his flusterment does seem to indicate that he's not cynical, jaded, or knowing on that topic. So in a sexual situation we might expect 15 year old Ed to lose some of his typical combination of fire and sang froid, and become more hesitant. Possibly even freaked out, depending on the circumstances.
Does this set him up as some kind of innocent victim of sexual predation? I really kind of doubt it. For one thing, if he didn't have some reason to a) notice and b) accept an advance I'm not sure it would even get past his focus to register at all. (You have to admit, Psiren had all the subtlty of a sledgehammer.) Roy gets past his focus, all right, but Ed's awareness of him is very adversarial--which gets us to the other thing. Ed is more than capable of taking care of himself. You notice he gets over his flusterment with Psiren and carries through his chosen response without getting sidetracked again.
On to Roy. This is actually the part I consider most problematic--what reason Roy would have to be sexually attracted to a 15 year old that he's known since the kid was 12. Of course, Ed's pure jaw-dropping gorgeousness is a darn good place to start, but would that overcome Roy's presumed awareness that Ed is rather emotionally innocent about romance and sexuality? I don't think so; I don't think Roy is the kind to take advantage of Ed's inexperience (which a manipulator like him probably could), and I certainly don't think Roy would endanger their working relationship by making a serious pass unless he had some solid indication that Ed would welcome it and be able to keep working with Roy effectively. He's generally too practical.
That is why I tend to write Ed older in my Roy/Ed fics.
Is this how I feel about real life liasons with this kind of age gap? Why yes, in fact, it is. It depends on the personalities. Most teenagers do not, fortunately for them, have the life-experience that would catch them up to someone twice their age. That is what makes most cases of sexual relationships with those age figures fine examples of predation.
I would point out that in most cases, it's up to the partner with greater experience to realize that fact.
I mean, when I was 19 and had an unspeakable crush on a really cool professor (almost exactly twice my age at the time), I would have been perfectly happy to go to bed with him given the slightest opportunity. He was the one who had to be responsible and restrained and think about whether it would be a good idea to sleep with a student who was a) still pretty damn innocent and b) rather messed up into the bargain. Thank goodness he did, too, because it would have been a bad idea.
Hmmm. I hadn't thought about it before, but it's quite possible that part of my liking for Roy stems from his similarity to that professor. *collapses laughing* What a thought!
Eh, while we're on the subject, this is similar to why I'm happy to write present-time Roy/Hughes, provided Gracia knows about it. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary I like to think Gracia has enough faith in Hughes' obvious deep and abiding love for her to not worry about him occasionally sleeping with his best friend, that Hughes loves his wife far too much for her to be anything but first in his heart, and that Roy would be fine with all this.
Hey, I said I like to pick the non-depressing options to write about.
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no subject
Date: 2004-02-16 09:21 am (UTC)I agree with the stuff about Ed being unusual enough to have an unusual relationship with Roy. It's possible, but it's not normal (and that's why the show's about Ed, because his life is extraordinary).
There's some other stuff I wanted to say about Roy, but this comment is long enough so I'm not sure if it should go in my diary or not >_>
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Date: 2004-02-16 09:35 am (UTC)Thoughts about Roy are always good. Tell, tell!
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Date: 2004-02-16 02:51 pm (UTC)(...I think I just said Roy thinks with his dick. I'm going to burn for this one! Yay! Flaming Fangirls rejoice! ...ugh)
So HughRoy works just fine because everybody's a grownup there, and if Roy happens to be a bastard, Hughes can handle it (and probably even encourage improvement). RoyEd works out because I think Ed is JUST mature enough, starting from the moment he shows up with his new automail in the anime. He's somehow grown a braid and (virtually) two new limbs in...what, three months? NINETY DAYS. That just doesn't happen in real life, man. I say IT'S A SYMBOL! ED IS A BIG BOY NOW! He may not be all the way there (not to mention still unstable), but he's a great deal more developed emotionally/mentally/spiritually than the kid who broke the laws of nature and turned his mom inside out in his own basement. (And they went to the trouble of having something really unusual happen, I don't want to pretend I didn't notice. Unless hair really does grow that fast. Haha.)
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Date: 2004-02-16 03:31 pm (UTC)...though I could *also* see him having slowly come to regard most people as objects, sexual or otherwise, in service of whatever his goals are. Possibilities there...
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Date: 2004-02-16 04:46 pm (UTC)Whether or not it was true in the past, the thing about Roy actually being fairly reserved and using the skirt-chaser reputation as a disguise really appeals to me. He got older and wiser, or it was an rumor that got blown out of proportion, and he learned to use it to his advantage, etc. What stops me from really going for it is that I just don't like to take something a character does and say, "they do this because x, but it's an act and they're really y." Even if Roy is a SLY FOX ARG TOO SMART FOR MERE MORTALS! I think it's cheap. (And we're the all-observing readers! He shouldn't get any secrets!) ...which turns me right back to thinking Roy really IS Colonel Bastard...
no subject
Date: 2004-02-16 11:24 am (UTC)I still prefer Hughes/Roy, if only because I've never (personally) known any May-December romances to succeed (though perhaps "May-September" is more appropriate in this instance ^_^;). The older party is _always_ in control of the relationship and things eventually collapse once the younger individual realizes this, and begins to resent or challenge the older partner's dominance. The greatest age spread that I know of personally is about 11 years and there are things about that relationship that make me shudder.
Hughes and Roy are both adults with the emotional maturity to know exactly what they're doing and what the implications are. And I don't think Ed, even with his adult-sized level of responsibility, possesses this maturity. It's something you only gain with age and falling in and out of love a few times. At least such has been my experience. And I just don't see Roy, even allowing for his machiavellian proclivities, taking advantage of Ed's inexperience for his own pleasure or power or what have you.
So I prefer Hughes/Roy. But after having babbled like this, I'll read and enjoy anything as long as it's well written. ^_^;;
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Date: 2004-02-16 12:05 pm (UTC)And Ed is *definitely* not emotionally stable enough to have any kind of romantic relationship at all at 15. Not a good one, anyway. And I agree that Roy isn't enough of a bastard to use Ed like *that*.
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Date: 2004-02-16 12:34 pm (UTC)Anyways, I agree with your rant whole-heartedly. I really can't see any Roy x Ed relationship happening presently, if only because of the reasons you stated.
AND YOU WRITE THAT FIC! I'll be your beta! XD
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Date: 2004-02-16 03:24 pm (UTC)Re:
Date: 2004-02-17 02:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-02-16 11:34 am (UTC)But, you're right, it's the personalities not the ages that make the difference. I wouldn't pair Winry and Hawkeye no matter how pretty I think they are because, well, Winry is young in ways that the Elric brothers aren't. She, like Relena, grows up over the course of the series, but she's still young in ways that make me pause.
It's why the ep 33 in Utena makes me so very squicked. Because Utena is young and Akio is preying on her and that sex scene (and, dude, that entire day was a tryst) makes my skin crawl.
[hugs] Interesting stuff. Get aim, dammit.
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Date: 2004-02-16 12:12 pm (UTC)The freakiest part of ep 33, to me, is that we never *see* Akio. We watch Utena *from his viewpoint*, and there's just so much implicit voyurism it makes me twitch. (...connection to the cameras, there...)
Ok, ok, I'm getting aim. *clings timidly* I'll be on as voronlles when I get it set up. *After* I watch fma 19.
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Date: 2004-02-16 12:41 pm (UTC)Dorothy/Une... they aren't taking over the world, they're too busy having Issues coming out of the war.
The only time you see Akio is his hand covering Utena's when she's laying there looking like she's having an orgasm and babbling about what to make for her and Anthy's lunch. (and, is it just me, or does Akio fuck *everyone*?) The entire scene is Utena and Akio having a day where they lay around and do nothing but periodically have sex and have meaningless, awkward conversation, and .... [shudders] It's deeply disturbing. Akio disturbs me on so many levels.
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Date: 2004-02-16 12:42 pm (UTC)YESSS!!! Score! [happydances] I'm on as MelisandreSadi. Since you're on my buddy list you should be able to see me. I might not be about, but if you ping me, I should hear it. I'm lounging about the apartment working on a paper.
no subject
Date: 2004-02-16 06:30 pm (UTC)I think there's more evidence in the series so far for Ed/Winly crushing than Ed/Roy crushing. (though I'd much prefer Al/Winly and Ed and she solidifying a more sibling relationship) He's so cute sputtering when Nina and Al are needling him about writing to her. Though, Pinako said they never received word, I wonder if she was exaggerating, or if Ed never sent the letter...
I can see Roy admiring Ed for his qualities, but in a more distant non-romantic/non-sexual way. And of course seeing the qualities that he could mold to further Roy's purposes. There's plenty that someone could build on to make Roy/Ed ficcing, but they'd need to build up reasons for it (like you and Coyo do ^____^), not just assume these two are automatically going to go at it.
I would point out that in most cases, it's up to the partner with greater experienct to realize that fact.
Ooooh, that could have so much angst potential. Should a young Ed ever come on to Roy (not likely, though) and Roy having to say no. Probably with some smarmy remark to the effect of 'why, you're just a child', to make Ed angry. Not really wanting to hurt, but needing to dissuade Ed from something he's not ready for. (Then again, a remark like that might just make Ed want to prove he's not a child... Disaster!) Or maybe Roy doing something over the top to emphasis to Ed just how not-ready he is. Because while I think Roy has the best intentions over-all, he really can be a sneaky, manipulative bastard. e_e
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Date: 2004-02-16 06:40 pm (UTC)Only I don't like writing stuff like that [muses heave sighs of relief]. I'll leave it to the angst-ficcers and stick with my smut and happy endings.
though I'd much prefer Al/Winly and Ed and she solidifying a more sibling relationship
Yes! Al and Winry would be so cute together. I'm half hoping that the mangaka doesn't carry through the Ed/Winry hints, because I'm afraid that would set us up for a girl-save-tortured-boy scenario, and that's just trite. Both characters deserve something more complex.
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Date: 2004-02-16 07:05 pm (UTC)Yeah, I don't think I could personally write that. And it would take some very good writing to get me to read it. But the angst potential... Whew.
I wonder, though, if Roy would have to take is as far as actually sex, before going 'see? what did I tell you?'. Guess it would depend on just how stubborn Ed would want to be in the face of a looming, hands-everywhere Roy. And on the topic of anything sexual, I don't think it would get that far unless Roy was the one to push it that far.
And definitely, Roy eating himself up with guilt, over all sorts of things. Definitely wouldn't mind seeing a fic with Roy wanting to snap and getting some... stress-relief from Hughes. >:D
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Date: 2004-02-16 08:28 pm (UTC)::seconds::
^_^;;