More on Mary Sue

[branchandroot]

Well, I typed up a reply to this thread, and find that I'm too scared of the stupid people to actually post it there.

*sighs*

So, here's a few more of my thoughts on Mary Sue, as relates to some other people's thoughts on her.


I'll readily agree that Mary Sue, the black hole of an author's concept of perfection from which not even canon heros can escape, is not everybody's cup of tea.

So what?

I see no reason whatsoever for Sue writers to stop masturbating in public, as long as they're not groping anyone else.

Considering the vaildation available to Sue writers within their own circles, there certainly isn't much motivation for them to alter styles unless they wish to enter a different section of the fanfiction community in which Sues are not welcome. To frame persistent Sue writing as some kind of arrested development assumes that everyone does, and should, wish to make that move. I hesitate to speak for a group of writers I am not part of, but it does not look to me as though this is the case. That being so, I see absolutely nothing wrong with fic writing as a means of socializing, as opposed to a self-consciously elevated artistic endeavor, which appears to be the other end of this spectrum.

Even if a writer's goal is to produce something at the marketable level, this does not automatically make the Sue an invalid stylistic choice. I do not think is is particularly reasonable to consider Sue style writing as uniformly unprofessional when one of the best selling commercial genres, serial romance, is based on much the same shape character. The quality of most fanfic Sue stories is not particularly professional, but, then, that is equally true of fanfic in other styles.

I also fail to see how the current crop of Sues can be accused of false representation, considering it's almost impossible not to recognize them from the story summaries.

And, as has been pointed out, once recognized they're easy enough to simply not read.

The attitude that Sues have no right to exist, especially in public, bewilders me. The violence with which that opinion is expressed, enforced and evangelized moderately appalls me. To brand wish fulfillment as some kind of ultimate failure because it is unrealistic seems rather to miss the point.

Comments

[hikariblue.livejournal.com]

I'm guilty of a couple of Sues myself; I wrote some before I knew the term even existed. I don't really recall having "my own circle" to share those stories with, though, at least not a public one. When I posted them to MLs and message boards, I wasn't exactly welcomed -- asking for reviews was kind of like pulling teeth.

-- But the writing was a means of socializing, certainly, because I *didn't* have many friends outside the 'net, and the canon characters felt so real to me that it made perfect sense for me to write myself into the stories. (Later this would become an actual self-insert, or at least one written to the best of my ability at the time, with me trying to figure out how my personality and those of the canon characters might actually mesh, or not. To me that became less of a fanfiction and more an exercise in personal discovery.)

And I think, sometimes, that's Sue's purpose -- for an author to discover herself. Who is she, and who does she want to be? It's the same thing as creating a persona for a role-playing game (of the tabletop/LARP variety). If you can figure out who you want to be, then it makes the transition easier, almost like having a goal to grow towards.

[branchandroot]

And that's actually one of the things that makes me squirm when I see people attacking Sues so vociferously. That's a far more personal attack than flaming a run-of-the-mill story.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

yes! i'm so tired of everyone dissing everyone else's enjoyment and all the quality wanking. sorry, but my kink's not better than your kink and it's about time we acknoeledge that (cranky today :-)

[branchandroot]

Exactly!

[prillalar]

Yeah, I know what you mean. I had a discussion with a friend recently about something similar. Not Mary Sues, but another fanfic trope that seemed to draw a lot of ire. And she said that people need to define their groups and so this was one way of saying "this is who is in my group and this is who is not". That gave me a lot of perspective on the dissing as well. I don't condone it, but now I feel I understand it.

As to Mary Sues, well, I find them rather charming. My belief is that, at bottom, all fanfic is about wish fulfilment. Mary Sues are just one way of expressing that, a very blatant way. And that's exposing a lot about oneself. It's sweet. Clearly, that's what some people need from their fanfic. (Or, you know, from their published novels or TV shows.)

[branchandroot]

Yes. And it's not as if I haven't seen this particular form of it before; it's very much the "scorn for the Popular" that is so often the institutionally mandated academic attitude.

I hate it there, too.

I think there's also some of what mjj expresses with the pithy phrase "there's no prude like a reformed whore". Having decided that the 'elevated' segment of the writing community is where they want to be, writers attack those who use out-of-favor tropes with all the more fervor to prove that they don't do that anymore themselves.

[prismgecko.livejournal.com]

I think what's really objectionable about Mary Sue fics is that the Sue takes away from the existing characters; by inserting this unusually powerful/beautiful/angsty/cool version of herself the author often takes away from the charm of a given fandom. In original fiction it comes off as lazy. I think if writers actually tried to represent themselves in a story as they really are it would be much more interesting to read. >_> A good example (original) would be the Anita Blake books. Fun at first despite the heroine's excessive badassness, later on you just find yourself beating your head against a wall because everybody loves Ms. Perfect Pretty Powerful I-have-issues vampire executioner. It's just dull.

This is not to say that I've never mary-sue'd (hell,I do it mentally at least once a day) but I'd really rather not read them. People have a right to express their ideas on the internet, but I can't help getting frustrated at pages and pages of literary masturbation when I'm digging for one gem of good writing.

I wish, though, that people were as rabid in the persecution of ..."Yaoi-sues" or whatever you like to call them, mansmut fics where NOBODY is in character and it's clear the author's taking on the roles of various hot men. Some of these are even decently written; it's just that they don't resemble the real characters at all. ;_; But it's smut, so no one cares.

Oh yeah, and I totally wrote an unfinished, multiple insertion fic about myself and my friends. I took it off the internet about 4 years ago, though, because I thought it was immature. It was still fun. XD

More rambling! For an example of a Marty-Stu that I find perfectly acceptable, see the book "Windmaster's Bane" if you can find it. Which you probably can't.

[branchandroot]

I think it's inexcusable to rabidly persecute any of them. There's nothing harmful being promoted by canon-bending Perfection. So it's frustrating (which, indeed, I couldn't agree more with). That's no decent basis for saying that they should be flamed out of existence.