Actually quite good people skills

[branchandroot]

Brief Guardian meta, because I keep tripping over mentions, here and there, interpreting Shen Wei as having bad people skills, sometimes phrased as “how do human?”. And it’s just so opposite my own reading of the character that it trips me up in the middle of writing, and then I sit there for a few minutes staring into space and blinking in befuddlement.

I mean. Shen Wei is a teacher. And while it’s quite possible to get a job teaching with bad people skills (especially, alas, at university level), you do not get to be a popular professor with bad people skills. All the professional interactions we see are him being welcoming and encouraging to his students and sympathetic to people Having Emotions (eg Li Qian and Zhang Ruonan). And then there’s his reaction to being brought in for questioning, early on, which is to play every questioner like a violin—and he only has unfair prior knowledge of one. He also has that effortless non-verbal communication with Zhao Yunlan even when they’re fighting. And while it’s romantic to say that’s because they love each other, True Love does not automatically make a person able to pick up non-verbal cues. (Be nice if it did, but alas, no.)

The only moment I can see that truly demonstrates interpersonal awkwardness is when Zhao Yunlan prompts him to comfort a distraught woman, at which point Shen Wei takes a hasty step back and shoves Zhao Yunlan himself into the breach. And, really, that read far more strongly to me of “You want me to do what with a woman?”. Considering how fast Zhao Yunlan beats a parallel retreat on being confronted with a woman trying to confess her love, I really hesitate to take such behavior as a general indicator of low people skills.

Shen Wei is habitually autocratic, when he’s in Official Mode. He’s intensely reserved about personal things, unless of course he’s talking to Zhao Yunlan. He’s easily flustered when presented with hope where he thought there was none. But bad at people, or even at silly humans and their rules? I just don’t see it.

Comments

[jo_lasalle]

And, really, that read far more strongly to me of “You want me to do what with a woman?”

I admit I don't find the "she's a woman!" explanation for that height of awkwardness scene convincing, especially since some of his best interpersonal skills come out around Li Qian. But I'm also genuinely curious: do you see any indication that if Dr. Cheng were a man mourning the death of his brother, Shen Wei would have an easier time going up to him and offering comfort?

ETA: I was originally going to bounce off Xparrot's comment but then realised I'd missed a crucial line there, so putting it here separately after all. To me where "not knowing how to human" comes in is primarily with lack of experience. Shen Wei has a lot of experience with some things (all that war fighting, envoying, professoring) but there are IMO also parts of the human experience that he hasn't had that much to do with (partly through his self-denial and waiting tendencies, partly through the Zhao Yunlan single focus, partly through all the war fighting and envoying he's had to do), and IMO that shows when suddenly he's confronted with them. My prime example is his (IMO) profound Not Getting of what the deal is with Zhao Yunlan and his dad, and then despite being generally attuned to Zhao Yunlan handling Zhao Yunlan catching him at a tea date with Zhao Xinci not well (and knowing he's not handling it well). He's not terrible or the only person who would be flaily in such a moment, mind. But to me that falls into the "Shen Wei lacks some experiences that are directly tied to being closely emotionally tangled up with other humans so when he's closely emotionally tangled up with other humans, sometimes the inexperience shows". That doesn't negate all the ways he's good at handling himself, especially IMO in more structured situations, but to me that's a thing that's there.

But "not knowing how to human" is also a shorthand, which can be a bit broad strokes, and apparently this is one that can push people's buttons. *g*

[extrapenguin]

I would like to co-sign this comment. There is a subset of interpersonal skills Shen Wei is good at, a subset he's bad at, and there are situations where he doesn't know which set of interpersonal skills to use. (Also ones where he picks "wrong", such as that interrogation scene. He basically put a neon sign of "Hi, my name is Suspicious!" atop his head, when that probably wasn't his intent.)

The whole "how does human" thing is to me more of an acknowledgement that his interpersonal skills profile is very uneven, plus the fact that since he's an alien from ten thousand years ago, he did have to actually learn all of those modern social skills/acceptable social reactions as an adult/late teen, instead of as a child by osmosis.

[jo_lasalle]

He basically put a neon sign of "Hi, my name is Suspicious!" atop his head, when that probably wasn't his intent.

That's a really interesting point. That scene is brought up a lot (correctly, IMO!) in the context of Shen Wei knowing how to read people, and it is very clear that he knows how to push Zhu Hong and Chu Shuzhi's buttons here expertly. So I think it totally does say that about his interpersonal skills. But this could also have very much blown up in his face if there'd been someone observing this who is as smart as Zhao Yunlan, but not as personally into / instinctively trusting of Shen Wei, at least for protecting his professor persona.

This is a scene I'm still chewing on now and then because it's IMO one of the few times we see Shen Wei in an arrogant mode, and it always struck me as a little unexpected a choice. So this is an interesting angle to add to that pondering...

[extrapenguin]

But this could also have very much blown up in his face if there'd been someone observing this who is as smart as Zhao Yunlan, but not as personally into / instinctively trusting of Shen Wei, at least for protecting his professor persona.
Indeed! It's a bit as if he's hammering with an excellent hammer and wonderful technique – except the thing he's fastening is actually a screw. (I suppose he had the "I'm the Envoy, they can't really hurt me" thing at the back of his mind, but his professor persona could still have easily been ruined.)

[trobadora]

About it potentially blowing up in his face - so could defending Dixingren to Zhao Yunlan, right at the start, and getting involved in SID cases left and right, before and after this. He's constantly showing he knows more than he should, that he IS more than he seems to be. I don't think he's unaware of that, or doing it without meaning to.

[jo_lasalle]

He's constantly showing he knows more than he should, that he IS more than he seems to be. I don't think he's unaware of that, or doing it without meaning to.

You think he means to set off Zhao Yunlan's spidey senses that Professor Shen is more than he seems to be? To me that flies directly in the face of his obfuscations, 'explanations', and 'sticking to his story even when it is obviously futile', and the entirety of his arc up to episode 15. I'm a bit stunned by the suggestion, tbh. :-)

[trobadora]

I think it's a risk he's consciously taking. To me, he's stuck between wanting to get closer to Zhao Yunlan and wanting to maintain his distance, for a variety of reasons, so his actions come out looking contradictory sometimes, all push and pull. But I really don't think he actually wants to be seen as just Professor Shen, not by Zhao Yunlan. (And he may not know how it came about, but Kunlun clearly knew him ...)

[jo_lasalle]

I think it's a risk he's consciously taking.

Sure! The safest thing to do if he really absolutely wanted to take no risk of discovery would be to keep more distance. (Maybe go on sabbatical, though I guess that takes too long to come around. ^^)

If you're not saying he's deliberately trying to be found out as the Envoy (which I would say flies strongly against canon), then IDK where we're disagreeing. *g* Yes, other choices he makes besides that interrogation scene could go wrong for him - and in a manner of speaking, they do go 'wrong' vis-a-vis the goal of 'must not be found out as the Envoy'. (They go right for him in the grand scheme of things because they get him closer to Zhao Yunlan, and being found out as the Envoy isn't actually the disaster he seemed to fear.)

My main point, piggybacking off what extrapenguin's observation: I always found it surprising that he goes arrogant towards Chu Shuzhi and Zhu Hong and not 'meek professor' (which is definitely something he has in his toolkit, and is currently still the persona he's pushing towards Zhao Yunlan). I sometimes chew on what his reason might be, and have some thoughts, but no baseline personal 'true reading'. And it could have gotten the SID on his ass much harder; maybe he knew that, maybe he didn't, maybe he knew he was taking that risk but whatever his thinking behind why he took this approach in the interrogation was more important than that risk.

[trobadora]

Hee! Looks like we're not actually disagreeing, then. :)

My main point was just that this isn't only risk of exposure he deliberately takes (because as you say, if he really wanted no risk he'd keep his distance), so the risk-taking here isn't inconsistent with his behaviour otherwise.

[jo_lasalle]

I think why in this particular case the "it could blow up in his face" part stands out to me - why I went 'oh!' at ExtraPenguin's comment - is that in this particular case, I'm not sure what he thought he would gain, and why he preferred this over a 'safer' meek professor approach. (With the other risks he takes, I generally see the benefit, though I don't have a list handy of whether there are other cases that might map onto this one more.) And I basically don't assume he's always, 100% failsafe calculating correctly when he's trying to achieve A by doing B, so to me "he miscalculated, but no harm done in the end" or "he had a wobble and had indignation interfere with the smoothest strategy" are possible interpretations.

[trobadora]

And I basically don't assume he's always, 100% failsafe calculating correctly when he's trying to achieve A by doing B

No, of course not! And sometimes he gets it very wrong, like with the wedding disaster. But I don't think we can call his choices during the interrogation scene a miscalculation, since it doesn't actually go wrong?

What he'd have to gain ... I think part of it is testing the SID, and part of it is showing off to the audience (because he has to know ZYL is watching). Beyond that, I need to think about this more! There's a lot to unpack in that scene. But, hm, I'm not 100% sure that, having turned up in the middle of a crime scene like that, playing too innocent would actually be much safer/less suspicious ...

(On the third hand, that reminds me of something else - his behaviour during the mugging. He's perfectly willing to play along, at least until they go for his pendant, but he doesn't for a moment pretend he's scared. He draws some weird lines sometimes!)

[jo_lasalle]

I'm bringing more hands! *g*

But I don't think we can call his choices during the interrogation scene a miscalculation, since it doesn't actually go wrong?

I'm not calling it a definitive miscalculation, no. But what this discussion has made a bit clearer to me - that oh! moment - is that it looks to me at this point (caveatcakes below) like he's taking something of an unnecessary risk. No, it does not go wrong, because Zhao Yunlan has already decided to trust him. Yes, he knew Zhao Yunlan was watching, and not some hypothetical chief who is as smart as Zhao Yunlan but maybe not as trusting of him. But still, at this point in their relationship, I don't think Shen Wei can count on the fact that Zhao Yunlan will look at him playing a villain for half an hour and then be convinced by an earnest declaration. It's at the very least a big gamble, for no real gain I can see. (I realise putting these two things - playing a villain for half an hour, then asking Zhao Yunlan to trust him - in close proximity might make someone go, 'he's testing Zhao Yunlan', but I don't think that's how he rolls towards Zhao Yunlan.) It's clear to me in that scene that he wants Zhao Yunlan to trust him, so making himself look more suspicious at length seems like a strange tactical choice.

Which is what makes me wonder if there was something else going on that isn't "the most rational approach I can take to achieve my aim", and something like ego or indignation played a part in the way he chose to approach that pre-Zhao Yunlan interrogation. (Which is how I got to "a potential miscalculation that ended up not having a negative impact".)

Beyond that, I need to think about this more! There's a lot to unpack in that scene.

These are my caveatcakes: it really is a 'strange' scene to me (not bad, not OOC, but 'takes more work to slot in') and I was serious in my first comment on this; I regularly still find it worth chewing over, and I also need to think about it more!

He's perfectly willing to play along, at least until they go for his pendant, but he doesn't for a moment pretend he's scared. He draws some weird lines sometimes!

That's a really good observation! FWIW and at the risk of opening another can of worms and hijacking branchandroot's post even more - hi, branchandroot ^_^), he always read as a little 'scared' to me, but not for a second towards the muggers or visible to the muggers. I think he's worried this could go wrong, basically, not for him but for these guys, and that could be very unfortunate for where he currently is with Zhao Yunlan. BUT this aside, he is totally not playing along making himself look scared to the muggers / of the actual mugging. This fits in with some other stuff I was recently discussing with someone but now for the life of me I can't remember what the canon issue was...

[branchandroot]

(Please, feel free! This is all great fun to read.)

[trobadora]

Just to make sure - how literally do you mean "playing the villain"? Do you read him as actively making himself look like a villain? Because I wouldn't describe it that way ...

and something like ego or indignation played a part in the way he chose to approach that pre-Zhao Yunlan interrogation

Ego and trollish instincts? *g*

This fits in with some other stuff I was recently discussing with someone but now for the life of me I can't remember what the canon issue was...

So curious about this now! Let me know if you remember. :)

[jo_lasalle]

No, sorry, shorthand. *g* I should know better by now! I meant that he acts in a way not designed to make him look less suspicious, and very likely to make him look more suspicious. If you're found at the scene of a crime, especially after being found loosely associated with a bunch of other previous crimes, actively and blatantly fucking with the heads of two police officers and looking like you're enjoying that you're good at that is... like ExtraPenguin says, he makes himself look like a suspect - as a byproduct rather than an active aim, though.

So curious about this now! Let me know if you remember. :)

Will do! I think it had something to do with ego in general but I can't puzzle it out until I remember what ep / canon moment it was about.

[trobadora]

as a byproduct rather than an active aim

Oh, good, then we're not actually reading him wildly differently. I'm relieved! *g*

[branchandroot]

*thoughtful* I actually do think he would have had an easier time with a man, yes, but I also think that feeling is shaped by how the show writers deployed his interactions with men versus women. We’re allowed to see Shen Wei interacting with men with a weighted or sober emotional throughline (Chu, Wu, Ye Zun, the Regent for that matter), while this particular moment of Dr. Cheng’s grief is interrupted by playing for an audience laugh.

[jo_lasalle]

while this particular moment of Dr. Chen’s grief is interrupted by playing for an audience laugh.

There is that. To be perfectly honest, if that scene was not in the show, I wouldn't miss it. >.< I really don't point to it for "Shen Wei's awkwardness" because I'm overly fond of it; I think it is written to be funny, in a totally off-key moment. I found the shoving of Zhao Yunlan cute the first time when I was hyperfixated on them, and then cringed every other time I watched it. (I do think it speaks to a part of Shen Wei's characterisation, though, so I don't think it should be disregarded as 'that one weird off-key scene that's just there for the lulz', so, I'm stuck with it.)

[extrapenguin]

Okay I came rereading these threads from forever ago, and: The moment with Dr Cheng's grief? Shen Wei didn't go comfort her because he considered himself responsible for Zu Ma's death. (He broke the phone, then later said Zu Ma's dying because the phone is gone.) He pushes Zhao Yunlan to do it because at that moment he can't do it.