The Mary Sue as a Valid Trope

[branchandroot]

Is it actually possible to write an anime Mary Sue?

The easy answer is, well, yes, of course it is. But it bears pointing out that almost all of the criteria for Sue-dom fit a sizeable category of the canon characters. While I can see the justice of readers becoming annoyed by a fan-made original character who takes over the story when the reader was expecting to read about the original original characters, I'm increasingly convinced that it's unreasonable to protest on most of the other standard Sue grounds.

Consider the common criteria sited. Funky hair/eye color or otherwise remarkable appearance. Completely unrealistic powers, possessed just because it's her/him. An equal degree of "endearing" clutziness or similar lack of some basic skill such as self-preservative instinct. Universally loved, despite immature behavior and somehow manages to be the center of the other characters' attention at all times. Either effortlessly sweeps to victory through overwhelming power or else falls into it by luck and the apparent blessing of chance at every turn. Instant love interest for any and all heros and villains, frequently both at the same time (if heros/villains are of the same sex, "obsession" may be substituted for "love"; it looks much the same). Usefully tortured past, or possibly present, that s/he has nevertheless managed to survive/overcome at completely unreasonable odds.

This is the basic profile of both the shounen and shoujo hero/ine.

Tsukino Usagi (BSSM); Yuuki Miaka (FY); Himura Kenshin (RK); Mutou Yuugi (YGO); Honda Tohru (FB); Utena (Utena); Shiro Kamui (X); Naruto (Naruto); Vash (Trigun); Sanzo (Saiyuki). Few of them meet all of the criteria, but it's close. Admittedly, the major victories won by these characters are rarely "effortless", but they are often a matter of uncovering a pre-existing inner strength and the catalyst for doing so is often external. That's what the main love interest, or, occasionally, the friend-group, is there for; to flip the switch for the hero/ine.

It may be worth noting, here, that I love most of these characters to pieces.

My point is, in order to fit new characters into an anime-based fanfic, they need extraordinary appearance and ability, and quite possibly equally extraordinary Murphy-baiting, Darwin-taunting behavior.

The complaints that I have some sympathy for are the ones pointing out that writing a replacement hero/ine turns the story away from the beloved original, and where's the point in either writing or reading that. And yet... I still find myself asking, where's the heinous crime? I don't exactly go out of my way to read Sue stories, both because it's generally an extremely personal kind of writing and because the technical ineptitude with which Sues are usually written gives me headaches. But if I want, say, a female character who can fight at the same level as the males of Rurouni Kenshin, I'm going to have to make her myself, because the mangaka sure isn't going to. (And, you know, I'd really like to read that.) If I want a character to come in and smack Naruto upside the head and talk some practical sense to him, s/he will have to come from outside Konoha to have an unencumbered viewpoint, and s/he had better kick ass and take names or Naruto would never listen. And if I want it right now, I'll have to make her/him up myself. And if I want more adventures of Sailor Moon and Co. I'll have to invent yet more villains, because she's vanquished all the pre-existing ones. And they'd better be super-duper villains, to be worth her time. And they almost have to fall in love with her, because that's practically an article of faith in that story's universe.

So, while I'm all for the idea of increasing one's technical skill, and staying true to the shapes of the characters and story, I think it may have been overlooked that a Sue is true to the shape of a large chunk of anime. The vituperation poured on her copper-tressed head seems disproportional and oddly angled. If the critiquers really dislike that particular character shape, why are they watching these shows to begin with?

Comments

[maeran.livejournal.com]

*laughs* We usually love the characters because we find some aspects we can identify or empathize with in them. Sometimes, though, this seems to translate pretty easily to "let's make the hero/ine a reflection/spin-off of myself to fulfill my personal Messiah complex!" I think many of the complaints against Mary-Sue are really rooted in this aspect of the fics. The sad thing, though, is that I'm not really sure how truly different the original anime/manga are from the Mary-Sue fanfics; Watase Yuu-san's works always make me wonder.

Then again, if anime/manga writers are free to create the said anime/manga out of their personal fantasy, why is Mary-Sue a crime? Besides the ouchies, that is. Personally, I don't think Mary-Sue is so bad - provided MS-fics do not spread incorrect canon misrepresentation to the poor fandom newbies, as they are wont to do. Skewed or wrong canon information without justification or explanation, now that sends me up in flames. Otherwise, I'm usually too incoherent to care. *grin*

[branchandroot]

Then again, if anime/manga writers are free to create the said anime/manga out of their personal fantasy, why is Mary-Sue a crime?

Precisely. And if the majority of anime hero/ines aren't walking Messiah complexes, I don't know what would be. I just find it a little odd to criticize the tendency in the derivative works when, really, they're a faithful reflection of the original tone.

Now criticizing the mechanics and technique, that I'm right alongside of. But the two are not intrinsically linked.

[moumusu.livejournal.com]

I'm curious as to just when the klutzy-girls-who-triumph thing started. Was Usagi the first, or was it an idea that was already floating around in anime? Did she just make a certain pattern, maybe one already found in shoujo manga, excruciatingly popular?

I think I hate Sues when they look like they were made to be what so many AMERICAN girls want. I don't know why I feel this way, but I am more likely to accept or at least ignore Sue-types who look like they were made by someone Japanese. Since the as vast majority of the people I call mangaka are Japanese and not fans, that might explain...it. Something.

[branchandroot]

I don't know how far back that goes. I'd suspect the trope of Everyman Triumphs is an old one--it resonates with too many parts of Japanese culture for me to believe it's some kind of new invention. But that particular expression... I have no idea.

*considers* I think there is something there, in the difference between Japanese Sues and Wester Sues, but I can't put my finger on it, either.

[mildlyinsane.livejournal.com]

You make a very good point. The general 'shape' of Mary Sues is usually just an exaggerated version of the anime characters.

But my problem with Mary Sues is not just those characteristics per say, it's how the MS is being handled.

In anime, those characteristics are not the point of the story. The conflict, the interaction with other characters, the character growth -- in short, the story -- is what keeps viewers engaged and coming back for more.

Mary Sues, on the other hand, don't. In a typical Mary Sue fic, the Mary Sue-ness (for lack of a better term) is the centrepiece of the fic. Everyone becames a foil for her. Everything else fades to the background. Unless, of course, it's a means to showcase her 'perfection' or amazing skills and powers. She hardly ever grows, unless it's to become more powerful, more beautiful, more Mary Sue.

An earlier comment touched on the author gratification aspects, both for ficcers and the mangaka and that's a good point too. But I think for the mangaka, they have to make sure that there is balance, and enough strong story elements to carry the Mary Sue along, or the publisher/ producers/ audience just won't bite.

just my two cents about why I dislike Mary Sues, and why I still watch anime. ^__^

[branchandroot]

See, that's what I mean about the technical and mechanical weaknesses of many Sue stories. And while most people who think about it would probably say that the static nature of the Sue is what really makes her objectionable (what really makes her a Mary Sue, as you say), I keep stumbling across people who make surface objections to the character shape. And it's happened often enough with specifically anime fandoms that I finally got fed up enough to make a note of it. I think it's mostly unreflectiveness, rather than actual self-contradiction, but unreflective plus vitriol equals very bad.

*laughs* Wasn't it you, though, who pointed out the great proliferation of canonical Sues in tenipuri?

[mildlyinsane.livejournal.com]

Ah, but you have to admit, sometimes, the fandom's Mary Sue character shape does get pretty bad. *wry* The silver/purple/red-haired Mary Sue with beauty to break every heart, and powers to rule the world...

Tenipuri definitely has a whole heaping lot of canon!Sues, but they are balanced, more or less, by the story, and the sheer number of characters who take turns to stand up to take their turn at the limelight.

For example, Tezuka, arguably the Sue-est of the Sues, appears only in carefully measured out doses. They give him two, three episodes where he truly shines, ie. the match with Atobe, and then he is shuffled off to Germany, hardly ever seen again until the action is over and it's time to start a new arc, aka the Senbatsu. (And even then, his MarySueness is still unrivaled. In the midst of rehabilitation, and he manages to completely dominate the team he's expected to manage? Riiight.)

Ryouma is a Mary Sue in training, which means he still gets character growth, and interaction, and obstacles to his path that lifts him -- just barely -- from outright Mary Sue-dom.

I'm not talking about his tennis skills through. I see Ryouma's growth primarily in divesting himself of his father's teachings, and to a lesser extent, the American way he's been learning. From an individual player, fighting his way through the ranks by himself, to a team player. Tennis, as they play it, is a group sports. You may win your match, but if the rest of your team doesn't, you still lose. For the first time, Ryouma's invested in other people's tennis -- he's forced to be interested in what happens to other people. And that's very interesting to watch.

So the new episodes, what with Tezuka's match with Fuji, and Ryouma back in the States, just became a lot more interesting to me. ^__^

[branchandroot]

From an individual player, fighting his way through the ranks by himself, to a team player. Tennis, as they play it, is a group sports. You may win your match, but if the rest of your team doesn't, you still lose.

*thoughtful* You know... that sounds a lot like Nanjirou. The individual player, I mean. We never saw him as part of the team; the only time we get a flashback of him playing in the team setting, he was, in fact, the only one to win (against Ban-ji's first team). Come to think of it, that may be one of the things that's always contributed to my contempt for him. Within this context, that kind of play is presented as irresponsible. *plays with thought*

Dang it, now I'm back onto the TezuRyo, which shouldn't be possible considering the three times I watched the latest episode...

[mildlyinsane.livejournal.com]

I remember a episode, where an old senpai type person came, and was talking about the 'pillar' concept for Seigaku. He mentions that Nanjirou was never a pillar. He didn't have the scope of vision for it. He was too focused on his own tennis, and so, could never be one. It makes Tezuka trying to pull Ryouma off his father's old footsteps that much more... hmm, intense?

And... *GLEE*

TEZURYO~! *tempts you back from Rikkai*

Well, it's not to say I don't like Rikkai... I do have rikkai-love, I do. but... TezuRyo? And for that matter Tezuka/Atobe? *wibbles muchly at you and tempts you with cookies*

Come back, Emily, come back... *tempts with cookies and sugar-coated rose petals*

[branchandroot]

*sighs* Yes, but it doesn't help when I'm trying to write FujiTez. *glowers at muses*

Minagawa Junko's voice is to sexy to be legal, really. I should stop listening to Samurai R when I'm trying to write other characters.

[mildlyinsane.livejournal.com]

*snugs*

TezuRyou TezuRyou TezuRyou TezuRyou TezuRyou TezuRyou TezuRyou TezuRyou TezuRyou TezuRyou TezuRyou TezuRyou TezuRyou TezuRyou TezuRyou TezuRyou TezuRyou TezuRyou TezuRyou XD

i'll read whatever you write. *nods solemnly* no stress, or pressure whatsoever. really.