The difference between manga and comics
Jan. 5th, 2010 05:57 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
branchandrootActually, this is a lot broader than that, but that was one of the places this post started. The other was Rana's comment on a different post, words to the effect that the fan-cultures in question seem to divide themselves based only on some very fuzzy Orientalism.
I agree that fuzzy Orientalism is the most regrettably common way Western fans of similar media from different national/ethnic groups (eg comics and manga) express their differentiation. That particular expression is generally a lot of hot air, yes.
But I also think there are real fan-culture differences, touching on though not always rising directly from the mother-culture differences of the sources. This is my attempt to articulate the ones that I've seen. Warning: generalizations ahead, though not baseless ones.
ETA: To elaborate, this post is based on my own and my circle's experiences in various fandoms; unfortunately I managed to phrase things rather more generally and universally than I quite realized at the time. *rueful* None of the following is actually meant to be a Declaration Of How Fandom Is Everywhere. That said, the experience in question is not a narrow one, and I think the following is representative of a significant section of manga (and anime) fandom participants.
One major fan-culture difference is Japanophilia. Not the study of another culture, though it can in a few happy cases evolve into that, but the fad for and valorization of the surface and trappings of another culture. It makes me twitch, but there it is. However much some of us headdesk, this exoticization isn't going away anytime soon and it is a significant fan-culture difference.
Another is what we might call the discussion tropes of the fandoms. These tend to evolve from a handful of defining features in the sources where they cross with the developing tenor of the fandom culture. A recurring discussion in comic fandoms, for example, revolves around the hypersexualization of women, and how objectionable it is to reduce all the women to a set of tits and an ass. Manga fandoms do not have this discussion (ETA: I should have phrased this as something more like "this discussion or similar ones regarding the rendering of women as two-dimensional objects who exist for the benefit of men and not as fully realized characters"), not as a Known Issue, not in the open, despite an at least equal tendency to appalling objectification in the source material. Instead, the discussion usually gets pushed into private mode before it really gets going. See above, re: Japanophilia and valorization, also re: headdesking. On the other hand, the original language itself is a discussion point largely peculiar to Western manga fandoms, as will generally be the case with a translated source. It expresses as everything from language lessons to fights over transliteration systems to the eternal localization vs. "direct" translation battle, and knowledge of those debates acts as one of the shibboleths of manga fandoms.
Then there's actual style and content in the source. There has always been a certain give and take, between this particular two-set, of artistic style, and as US comics (the only ones I can speak to from experience) diversify it's becoming more evident, but there are also story tropes that are still distinct. How else, when they arise from two separate mother-cultures? To name only one, multiple genres of manga have, for decades, toyed with explicit homoeroticism in a way that comics in general do not. The genre diversity itself is another example, and the variety of story-types told in manga format. The symbolic language is, and can only remain, distinct as well. Curiously enough, such story tropes do not result in many fan-culture differences that I have seen, except insofar as manga fandom can, for example, show a more intense defensiveness, sometimes devolving into outright gay-bashing, over reading and enjoying explicit gay (only not real gay, which is a whole nother essay) romance, porn and slapstick. (ETA: I did not phrase myself with enough specificity here; I am aware of the voluble gay-bashing in comics fandoms. What I refer to is the particular "screw for my enjoyment while I deny you the right to live" double-mindedness that shows up among fen who are trying to have their cake and bash it too. The key word, here, is defensiveness.) The different story tropes I would put down as a distinction between the sources, but not one that manifests much in fandom culture outside of the actual preference for the style and content of one group of sources or another.
Now, what I would be interested to know is: do the same kinds of differences show up in the Western fandoms of Western and Asian TV? Or of Western bands and Asian bands? And do they manifest in gaming fandoms? That last especially interests me, since the game sources seem to be the most self-aware of the trans-Pacific trade.
ETA: As per suggestion, I would like to point out that I have not been present for the bulk of wrangler discussions on associated issues. These are thoughts going off in a different (somewhat) direction, so please to be not be bringing other fights in here. I am an unaligned polity.
ETA some more: Will not be replying to further comments on this one because work has descended for the term. Talk among yourselves if you like.
I agree that fuzzy Orientalism is the most regrettably common way Western fans of similar media from different national/ethnic groups (eg comics and manga) express their differentiation. That particular expression is generally a lot of hot air, yes.
But I also think there are real fan-culture differences, touching on though not always rising directly from the mother-culture differences of the sources. This is my attempt to articulate the ones that I've seen. Warning: generalizations ahead, though not baseless ones.
ETA: To elaborate, this post is based on my own and my circle's experiences in various fandoms; unfortunately I managed to phrase things rather more generally and universally than I quite realized at the time. *rueful* None of the following is actually meant to be a Declaration Of How Fandom Is Everywhere. That said, the experience in question is not a narrow one, and I think the following is representative of a significant section of manga (and anime) fandom participants.
One major fan-culture difference is Japanophilia. Not the study of another culture, though it can in a few happy cases evolve into that, but the fad for and valorization of the surface and trappings of another culture. It makes me twitch, but there it is. However much some of us headdesk, this exoticization isn't going away anytime soon and it is a significant fan-culture difference.
Another is what we might call the discussion tropes of the fandoms. These tend to evolve from a handful of defining features in the sources where they cross with the developing tenor of the fandom culture. A recurring discussion in comic fandoms, for example, revolves around the hypersexualization of women, and how objectionable it is to reduce all the women to a set of tits and an ass. Manga fandoms do not have this discussion (ETA: I should have phrased this as something more like "this discussion or similar ones regarding the rendering of women as two-dimensional objects who exist for the benefit of men and not as fully realized characters"), not as a Known Issue, not in the open, despite an at least equal tendency to appalling objectification in the source material. Instead, the discussion usually gets pushed into private mode before it really gets going. See above, re: Japanophilia and valorization, also re: headdesking. On the other hand, the original language itself is a discussion point largely peculiar to Western manga fandoms, as will generally be the case with a translated source. It expresses as everything from language lessons to fights over transliteration systems to the eternal localization vs. "direct" translation battle, and knowledge of those debates acts as one of the shibboleths of manga fandoms.
Then there's actual style and content in the source. There has always been a certain give and take, between this particular two-set, of artistic style, and as US comics (the only ones I can speak to from experience) diversify it's becoming more evident, but there are also story tropes that are still distinct. How else, when they arise from two separate mother-cultures? To name only one, multiple genres of manga have, for decades, toyed with explicit homoeroticism in a way that comics in general do not. The genre diversity itself is another example, and the variety of story-types told in manga format. The symbolic language is, and can only remain, distinct as well. Curiously enough, such story tropes do not result in many fan-culture differences that I have seen, except insofar as manga fandom can, for example, show a more intense defensiveness, sometimes devolving into outright gay-bashing, over reading and enjoying explicit gay (only not real gay, which is a whole nother essay) romance, porn and slapstick. (ETA: I did not phrase myself with enough specificity here; I am aware of the voluble gay-bashing in comics fandoms. What I refer to is the particular "screw for my enjoyment while I deny you the right to live" double-mindedness that shows up among fen who are trying to have their cake and bash it too. The key word, here, is defensiveness.) The different story tropes I would put down as a distinction between the sources, but not one that manifests much in fandom culture outside of the actual preference for the style and content of one group of sources or another.
Now, what I would be interested to know is: do the same kinds of differences show up in the Western fandoms of Western and Asian TV? Or of Western bands and Asian bands? And do they manifest in gaming fandoms? That last especially interests me, since the game sources seem to be the most self-aware of the trans-Pacific trade.
ETA: As per suggestion, I would like to point out that I have not been present for the bulk of wrangler discussions on associated issues. These are thoughts going off in a different (somewhat) direction, so please to be not be bringing other fights in here. I am an unaligned polity.
ETA some more: Will not be replying to further comments on this one because work has descended for the term. Talk among yourselves if you like.
Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-07 05:33 pm (UTC)I will, however, take huge exception to this statement:
Manga fandoms do not have this discussion, not as a Known Issue, not in the open, despite an at least equal tendency to appalling objectification in the source material.
I already kind of touched on this in my comment to sailorptah (after which I realized that I should have said that stuff *here* but I am not much with being articulate today). Anywhoo, as you said in the comments upthread, you personally haven't seen those discussions. Okay, but I have. Like, a lot. They don't tend to happen on livejournal, not so much, but they are definitely a huge part of the wider blogosphere that discusses anime and manga. I have eighteen different manga review blogs on my Google Reader list and they *all* discuss issues of sexualization and objectification when it's relevant to the title in question. Which is often, unfortunately. The reviewers at major news sites like Anime News Network frequently - not always, but frequently - touch upon these issues in their reviews, too. And yes, they talked about Queen's Blade a couple times earlier this year too - if only to smack it down. ;) And again, back to livejournal: I and many of the people on my flist dicuss these issues frequently, especially with regards to Naruto, yuri anime, etc.
Blah blah blah, I know, it all boils down to who's on your flist, which blogs you read, what forums you hang out in, etc. etc. I think that my fandom experience in this regard has been very different from yours. But that it exactly why I take exception to your statement that feminist discourse never happens in animanga. It does. Just because you haven't experienced it, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
And as for the organization of fandoms in A03, I have no comment. It seems blindingly obvious to me that manga and comics shouldn't be separated, but because it seems blindingly obvious to me, I suspect that there are issues here that I'm just not seeing. I need to read more before I can open my mouth about the topic without sounding like a dumbass.
Re: Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-07 05:36 pm (UTC)Re: Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-07 06:10 pm (UTC)Re: Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-07 07:05 pm (UTC)Manga Bookshelf
Manga Worth Reading
The Manga Critic
Kate Dacey is always awesome, but I especially love her recent smackdown of sexism in Pig Bride.
Comics212
TangognaT
Sporadic Sequential
John Jakala just retired from blogging, but his archives were worth a read. I think he was the first blogger to write a scathing critique of the sexism in Honey and Clover; I lost the link to that post, though.
The Hooded Utilitarian
It's a comics+manga blog with multiple contributers. I don't *like* all of the contributors (I almost always disagree with much of what Noah posts), but they are all very articulate, thoughtful people. Sex/gender issues are frequently discussed. There's a regular BL review column called Gluey Tart.
MangaBlog
Linking blog for manga. Lots of interesting posts get linked here.
I would also recommend googling "Casey Brienza" as she blogs/reviews for Graphic Novel Reporter and Anime News Network. She's one of the most unabashedly, openly feminist reviewers out there. I definitely don't agree with all of her reviews, but they are always a good read.
Re: Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-07 09:42 pm (UTC)Thanks!
Re: Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-07 11:52 pm (UTC)For general manga/anime discussion (heavy on the manga) http://twitter.com/#/list/mbeasi/manga-anime-discussion
For mangabloggers specifically: http://twitter.com/#/list/mbeasi/mangabloggers
- Melinda Beasi (Manga Bookshelf (http://mangabookshelf.com))
Re: Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-07 11:54 pm (UTC)"There is fantastic conversation going on there at pretty much any hour of the day or night and you can find most of the writers listed above there."
*shame*
Re: Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-08 02:37 am (UTC)Re: Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-07 07:05 pm (UTC)You're quite right; this entry is coming only out of my and my circle's experience, and I knew when I wrote it that there was a conflict between that specificity (which I did at least point out!) and the generality with which I framed that experience. *rueful* Rhetorical failure there.
I'm curious, now. The majority of my fannish engagement was in the Age of Shrines and then on LJ comms. Have you found many such discussions in those locations? (I have a nascent Theory of Platforms brewing, here.)
Re: Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-07 07:23 pm (UTC)The majority of my fannish engagement was in the Age of Shrines and then on LJ comms. Have you found many such discussions in those locations?
Hmmm, good question. In terms of the Age of Shrines, not really. At least, not in my experience. My experience with shrining, though, is pretty much limited to Sailor Moon and Utena fandom. I recall that Utena fandom had a lot of meta-heavy shrines, but none (that I can recall) ever explicity called out the series for its instances of sexism!fail, as they were more focused on its win. And trying to analyze the relationships between the characters. And trying to figure out WTH Ikuhara was smoking. Etc.
As for LJ comms, again, my experience on the animanga side of things is limited. Right now I'm very active in Soul Eater fandom. Topics like sex, gender, racism, and mental health issues have - *very* infrequently - been discussed on the main fandom community (
I am intrigued by your nascent Theory of Platforms. :)
Re: Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-07 07:52 pm (UTC)And this leads into my Theory! Which is that LJ and kin, with the ease and emphasis they give to conversation and cross-dialogue, actually foster that pressure. A blog gives a little more authority to the primary poster. Well, actually, I think it gives a /lot/ more authority to the poster than a comm does. So a comm, while it fosters community growth all right, may also gives faster rise to communal discourse policing.
Re: Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-07 10:28 pm (UTC)Y'know, I think you're on to something. Seriously. Personally I feel a lot safer talking about sexism and racism in Soul Eater fandom because it's small-ish and I already have a sense of how many people are going to agree or disagree with me. however, I don't think I'd be brave enough to post something that would make people *uncomfortable* on a huge forum for a big fandom like, say, the narutofan.com forums, because there's a higher risk of being absolutely deluged by asinine bingo-ready responses, and having the conversation shut down before it can really begin.
A blog gives a little more authority to the primary poster. Well, actually, I think it gives a /lot/ more authority to the poster than a comm does. So a comm, while it fosters community growth all right, may also gives faster rise to communal discourse policing.
That makes a lot of sense to me, too.
Re: Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-08 02:39 am (UTC)Re: Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-08 02:43 am (UTC)Re: Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-07 09:52 pm (UTC)Hmmmm... I'm not really a purist when it comes to translations, but I have to admit it annoys me when Japanese or Chinese characters' names are flip-flopped to follow Western naming orders, because while Light/Raito might be a translation issue, changing, say, Naruto's name from Uzumaki Naruto to Naruto Uzumaki will yank me out of the narrative every time, because rather than going "huh, he has a different name in this version," my brain goes "why is her family name Sakura? That's a first name" and it's as jarring as reading about Sam and Dean using electric torches and putting their guns in the boot of the car, or ipods at Hogwarts.
Re: Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-07 10:20 pm (UTC)My complaint, though, is when fans (or even pro translators) insist that Japanese language norms be strictly adhered to even when the anime/manga characters in question aren't Japanese, don't speak Japanese, and don't live in Japan. "Elric Edward" is just as awkward to me as "Naruto Uzumaki."
Japanese name-order outside of Japanese
Date: 2010-10-11 09:15 am (UTC)Some Japanese choose to Westernize their name order when naming themselves outside of a Japanese context. The designer calls herself "Hanae Mori", not "Mori Hanae". The conductor calls himself "Seiji Ozawa", rather than "Ozawa Seiji". Is it an artefact of colonialized thinking? Perhaps, but it's a personal choice on the part of those people. "Naruto Uzumaki" isn't necessarily wrong (although in the context of the manga, which I'm not familiar with, it might be utterly out of character).
As far as I know, this is one of those things where generalizing to a pan-Asian culture leads to incorrect assumptions. (If I'm not mistaken, most other East Asian cultures do preserve sourcelanguage name order in English. Mao Tse-tung, etc.)
Re: Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-08 02:33 am (UTC)Re: Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-09 03:23 am (UTC)The fan translation that uses "Elric Edward" is particularly icky and exoticizing when the Japanese author himself writes "Edward Elric."
*That* is the type of fan response that I was trying (incoherently) to snark at in my original comment, which is why I said "not set in Japan."
Re: Yes, here via metafandom.
Date: 2010-01-09 03:29 am (UTC)