branchandroot | PoT: Mirror Writing: Ripple

No weirder than parents who believe that their precious darlings are future Mozarts, Nobel prize winners, etc.

...yeah, but I don't think that they're sane either. Or less damaging.

To qualify this: I don't think they're intentionally damaging to their children, and those who take into account how much their children love a certain thing/how much their children really want to work at a certain thing are excellent at fostering their children's talent. Nanjiroh isn't making Ryoma do something Ryoma's not interested in. The problem, for me, is setting himself up as Ryoma's opponent/supporter. Not that it's an utenable position, especially with Ryoma, but I don't think it's an approrpiate position for a parent.

Point taken.

However, (Warped World-view speaking:) I don't expect parents to be 100% sane. They're not sane for wanting children in the first place. I expect all parents to warp their children's minds, some more severely than others.

And then there's Ryouma to consider. Would Ryouma had turned out differently if Nanjirou were a caring, nurturing, supportive parent? (He wouldn't have let the boy play tennis if that were true, given the number of other crazies in the tennis world.) Probably Ryouma wouldn't have the same sort of insecurities as Ravenwood describes, but what the hell. He's a smart boy. He'll figure it out.

Subscribes to the "children are tough" philosophy.

Would Ryouma had turned out differently if Nanjirou were a caring, nurturing, supportive parent? (He wouldn't have let the boy play tennis if that were true, given the number of other crazies in the tennis world.)

*shakes finger* Three point penalty for specious-rhetoric-chopping! You use the terms caring, nurturing and supportive as if they meant overprotective and smothering, which is not what either Crysiana or I have been implying.

Actually, Tezuka is, as indicated, far closer to my idea of a good, nurturing, supportive parent. He lets Ryouma go as far as he can, against Ibu while injured, against Sanada despite the unlikelyhood of winning, but he also sets very distinct limits that everyone involved understands. He has a good balance, and he's teaching that to Ryouma.

*thinks* I suppose, really, I subscribe to Cordelia's early opinion: people should have to pass a proper exam to have children, not just the practical. Kids are tough, but I don't believe in letting the people who put them in this already screwy world duck their responsibility by leaning too hard on that.

Which is precisely why I will never have any, and entertain myself by messing with the heads of other peoples' as soon as the dear things are legal adults. *grin*

*shrugs* Like I said, I'm not as level-headed as usual on this score; it punches personal buttons. I will admit that no parent will ever get it all "right", because that's a living kid they're working on not a computer program, and the ones who know this will probably come out of the experience more sane than the rest.

*shakes finger* Three point penalty for specious-rhetoric-chopping! You use the terms caring, nurturing and supportive as if they meant overprotective and smothering, which is not what either Crysiana or I have been implying.

Guilty, guilty, guilty. (?) Ahem. Actually, I didn't mean for those words to imply overprotective and smothering. I was trying to provide a contrast, though that may not have been the best way of doing it. Would you see Nanjirou as overprotective and smothering if he hadn't let/encouraged Ryouma to play tennis, either because of the crazies or for some other reason?

I am genuinely curious as to what your idea of proper parenting would be for someone like Ryouma, though. How would a former tennis genius who is intensely interested in developing his own son's tennis skills treat him? Does your later comment mean that you approve of Tezuka's style, then (while not suggesting that he is a parent)?

On re-reading your fic (and how enjoyable it is) I'm compelled to apologise for objecting to your protrayal of Nanjirou just off the bat, because you've clearly stated that you have made up your mind on him, and I'm the one who was hastily getting to the fic and never stopped to read your comments.

Many thanks to Crysiana too for taking the trouble to respond to my unlooked-for comments.

*small grin* No problem. As long as you don't mind that I probably won't compromise on this one, I don't mind hearing other views.

A proper parent for Ryouma... it is a challenge. I do approve of Tezuka's style. He's quite strict, but very much in the "teach him how to live dangerously" way. I seem to be falling back on Cordelia quite a bit, here, but she is my very best model of how to raise a genius. The fact that Ryouma responds so immediately and, for him, respectfully to Tezuka says to me that he needs someone who will be blunt and straightforward with him, and not try to bait him into accomplishment. Also, perhaps, someone more comfortable with his authority than Nanjirou, the eternal adolescent, seems to be. Given that the parent is Nanjirou, the question gets harder.

I think a big part of my objection is that, as the manga tells it, the main reason Nanjirou hasn't utterly ruined his son is blind, dumb luck. Issue 0 tells us that Nanjirou decided to make his son into his rival at the ripe age of three, based on his showing a fighting spirit (good eyes, the signifier of someone who has determination and purity of purpose). Just lately, Inoue suggests that Ryouma's talent is a matter, not of natural gift, but of unrelenting training. This suggests to me that his natural gift is not for tennis in particular, but more for any physical competition that offers him a challenge. Nanjirou appears to be the one who chose to channel that into tennis, for his own rather selfish purposes (boredom, to wit) and the fact that Ryouma does turn out to like the game is the only thing that keeps this from being an unmitigated catastrophe and tragedy. Luck.

I guess I find it hard to believe that he does any of this out of care for Ryouma, especially given his constantly belittling method of teaching.

The stuff about Nanjirou aside...

I see what you mean about Tezuka, though I'd thought the reason he gets across to Ryouma better was because he met another challenge who may or may not be on par with his dad.

Also, perhaps, someone more comfortable with his authority than Nanjirou, the eternal adolescent, seems to be.

Because Tezuka is Buchou? The problem for me is that the Tezuka-Ryouma interactions don't say "I'm being a proper guide" (or parent-like figure), they say, "He's going to be a strong opponent to watch out for."

On another note... the problem with teaching someone to live dangerously is that he can become dangerous to everyone, especially himself. Cordelia's teaching is admirable and in certain respects it might be good for your genius offspring to go off and crash and burn (or fly) for himself--but ouch!--but I'm not sure if Tezuka is doing that for Ryouma. He's good and fair and he takes care of his team, but other than that, I think the other players have more positive interaction with Ryouma than he ever did.

(On a totally OT note, would Cordelia's approach have been successful if Miles weren't a genius, do you think? Or if Miles was like Ivan, for example?)

Honestly, I'd always thought that Tezuka was a tad predatory in the manga. All that watching... then out of the blue, "I wanna play a match with Echizen," and after that it's "become the pillar of Seigaku". Me: pfft.

Now that I've sort of convinced everyone that I've been reading the mutant version of PoT, hence the interpretations, I shall go ponder on Nanjirou's parenting skills a bit more. By the way, belittling as a teaching tool? Mutant-manga-reading me says: gag joke!

*laughing* Ah, but to decide whether Cordelia's methods would work on Ivan, we have to decide just what Ivan is. Not an easy task. More generally, I think Cordelia would have succeeded in assuring Miles that she loved and valued him for exactly what he was, whatever that turned out to be. She seems to be good at that, if Mark is anything to go by. To a certain extent I think the competence in living dangerously is self-adjusting; if Miles were less ingenious in coming up with dangerous things to do, there would be less demand on him to come up with equally ingenious ways of getting out of trouble. Even with a non-genius, I think Aral had a point: the trick is figuring out when to let go. That's true with any child.

More generally, I think Cordelia would have succeeded in assuring Miles that she loved and valued him for exactly what he was, whatever that turned out to be.

I expect you're right, though what I really like is the confidence she has in him, whatever happens--and it's a confidence she has helped to inculcate. Both his parents do that.

I hope you don't mind that I declare an end to this parenting session? We've got our own ideas about Nanjirou, Tezuka and so on, and I think to go on will result in a terribly undignified screaming fit (on my end, at any rate). It's been great--and surprising--to hear your views. Much thanks.

Besides, I want to read more MomoRyo from your hands soon. Like, now.

*waves hands* Working, working. Next one should be up in a day or two. Complete with an appearance by my most favorite character, Karupin. *evil grin*

That was exactly what I was going to say. You beat me to it. *snugs*

PoT: Mirror Writing: Ripple

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