branchandroot | PoT: Mirror Writing: Ripple

...

I will *not* get all sniffly at work, damn it. [growls at self]

Thank you for putting very clearly into words why I sometimes despise myself for liking Nanjirou (much like I despise myself for liking Saionji... but that's a whole 'nother can of worms right there). He's such a goofy perv that it's very simple to lose sight of what it is he appears to be doing with Ryouma--which is not being a father to the kid.

[grumbles to self about Nanjirou Echizen]

Oi, have you seen the 00 manga, with Nanjirou-in-America, and toddler-Ryouma?

*claps hands* Oo, I made her sniffle! It must have been good angst. *pets*

*wails* No, I have not seen that one, and I want to, darn it! I hear it does a very different take than the anime chose to do.

You have an email account that can handle a fairly large couple of files? 'cause I can get them to you that way, with minimal fuss.

*big sparkly eyes* Oh, happiness! ravenwood@alltrees.org should manage them just fine. *hugs you till your ribs creak*

Scanlations away!

...it certainly took Yahoo! long enough to decide that yes, it would attach the files. >_

I hate it that I can't stay mad at Tezuka. I really do. *wilts, then perks up with a grin* "High school girls! High school girls!"

Hm. I wonder if Nanjiroh just doesn't know HOW to be a good dad. Like, you get scenes where he's watching Ryouma play and you can tell, when something interesting happens, that he's pleased with Ryouma, but he never really says, "Yo! Good job!" And when it comes to personal relationships, as with Ryouma and Sakuno, you know he... cares? is interested in? how Ryouma deals with girls, he just never expresses it unless it's in the form of teasing.

...Geez. Nanjiroh shows his affection for his son like a fourth grade boy with a crush on the prettiest girl in the class. You know, hair pulling and name calling and stupid faces. I find his interpretation of a parent amusing in a cartoon, but in real life, I'd probably want to kick a head or two in.

*breaks down snickering* Evil, evil woman!

*ahem* Anyway. I do kind of wonder what sort of upbringing Nanjirou himself had. With that kind of wild talent, he couldn't have fit into his society very easily, and if his own parents had no real point of contact with their son's gift and obsession, that might explain a few things. He might be offering Ryouma what he thinks he would have liked himself. Kind of like my aunt, who was a really picky eater as a child, and has always more or less made three dinners (one for her and her husband, one for her son and one for her daughter) because she wishes her own mom had/could have done that for her.

But Nanjirou does strike me as someone who never quite matured, in a lot of ways. If tennis was his world and life, and no one ever gave him a decent run for his money, after he left Ryuuzaki-sensei, he probably never had to. So, yeah, he might not know how to express this gift he's trying to give the way an adult who's also Ryouma's caretaker should.

One of these days you and I will have a nice, long chat and sic into each other about characters and motivations. I think it would be FASCINATING, since I agree with you on 90 percent - it's the other 10 percent that gets me going. ^_~

I like Nanjirou. I'll preface this with that. I also like different interpretations.

I believe Nanjirou never grew up. I have the opinion that there's flashes of maturity, and these are when he manages to provide a bit of guidance, but most of Ryoma's structure was probably provided by his mother. Really, I think Ryoma probably views Nanjirou more as an older brother figure.

I do like how you tinted this with Tezuka as a surrogate. That is something I definately see - either as a mentor or as a father figure. Tezuka and Ryoma have a lot in common, and I can more easily see Ryoma going to Tezuka for advice than to Nanjirou (especially if Ryoma is ghei ghei ghei). Tezuka would listen - Nanjirou seems incapable of it.

Nanjirou does have his good points, but I won't get into that with you since it's going to be talking to a wall. ^_~

The second graph struck me right here " First the game with Whatshisname" as excellent Ryoma characterization - Ryoma, unlike Fuji, genuinely would forget. Ryoma has an amazing amount of tunnel vision, and he would erase people from his mind who he deigns unimportant.

*snugs* Character chats are good! I babble quite a bit, on that score, in my personal journal. *considers* Are you signed on more often as Aishuu or as risingtides? I could friend you as Aishuu, too, if you'd like to listen to me go on about characters and motives.

Anyway! Ideas! Especially about Ryouma's mom, since I want to bring that up in a later story. Ryouma's family is, by traditional standards, rather odd, but if we consider Nanjirou more a sibling than a parent, it suggests a few other things. One is that his mother is filling a lot more of a father's role; she seems to be the main breadwinner, and the parent who is out-of-house the vast majority of the time. Nanako seems to act as the traditional mother, present, giving emotional support and guidance. It's like a traditional family, only... offset. Which actually could fit Ryouma's personality pretty well.

Hm. Now you're making me wonder whether I should let Ryouma come to terms by thinking of it like that, himself...

I have you friended as risingtides, and I have checked your ravenwoodii account a time or too... maybe I'll go at you... ^_~ Sometime... aishuu is my RL account and I'm trying to shift it more and more out of fandom - tenipuri, at least. The PROBLEM is that I don't actually log into RT that often... it's more of a place for me to bookmark.

I did a rant a while ago about how AMERICAN Ryoma is - he seems Japanese as well, but there's this strange blend of culture to him. I think that's part of the problem.

Rinko is definitely a key in his development - and absentee parent. Really, his father is more important to him, in being raised. The parental roles have been reversed. Rinko, the breadwinner who is never seen, and Nanjiroh, the stay at home... and since Nanjiroh doesn't seem to DO anything (except probably a string of part-time jobs to keep himself busy.... I have the feeling the Echizens are very well off... probably from a combination of Nanjiroh's earnings that were invested well, some family wealth, and Rinko's job), he falls more into an older brother role. Nanako is the "housewife."

All good, I'll make sure RT is in the right filters, then. ^_^V

I caught that post, I think. It would make sense if Ryouma got his on-again-off-again acculturation from his mother. He can be, really, pretty proper for his current situation, but only when he thinks it's worth it. With his team, for instance. The whole idea that he can pick and choose when to use which set of manners seems like something that fits with what little we know of his mother.

You know, this is incredibly cute, and a lovely insight into Ryouma, the fact that Tezuka is substitute father-figure made me feel very sorry for Ryouma.

Nanjiroh is one of those characters that I have major issues with. Not because I don't like him (I do! I do!) but because I see him training this amazingly talented boy into the most talented player ever, yet in the process deciding that the -talent-, the -player- was more important than father and son relationship. That hurt.

The fact that you are making Ryouma actively aware of it is much more painful.

*sniffles* love ya *huggles*

*huggles* But Momo will make him feel better!

I think the most heart-ripping scene in the manga that I've seen is in the first few volumes, when the first years go to play at Kachirou's dad's tennis club/school think and Mr. Goldtooth gives K-dad a hard time. Because, after Ryouma waxes the guy, he gives K-dad this itty-bitty smile and the same thumbs-up gesture that Kachirou and his dad do with each other, and I nearly cried. Just the implication of reaching out to a father figure who's a father, not a tennis god... owowowowow.

More cute and more angst, both, coming up next!

Really? I had a different interpretation of that: I thought it was a sign of solidarity between Ryouma and Kachirou's dad (you know, us against jerks.) Maybe because Ryouma seems to be so damn independent, I honestly never thought of him of looking for a father figure before. Hm...

However... I do sort of like Nanjirou, the way you are entertained by jerks with whom you aren’t related. I don’t think he’s one of the tricky/crazy ones in trying to play with Ryouma’s mind where tennis is concerned. He does seem to take tennis very seriously, and he does push Ryouma quite a bit where it is concerned. It’s just that he’s at a loss to stop Ryouma from imitating his style, and that—I think the manga states it somewhere—was why he felt that sending Ryouma to Seigaku was a good idea.

There’s another episode somewhere in the manga, I think where Seigaku was playing some other school (name escapes me), and Nanjirou turns up, meets one of their coaches, whom he used to know. They have a talk about their sons and tennis, and Nanjirou says something like, ‘I think we’ve been worrying too much about our kids.’ To me, that’s a sign that he does think about the best way to help Ryouma become better, and I sort of think better of him for it. Another episode shows Nanjirou in America, where he later decides to retire from tennis. Partly because he’s not interested in chasing after titles, and partly because he’s beginning to see Ryouma—then a mere toddler, really—as a future opponent that he could play with. He takes tennis and the development of his son quite seriously, and I like him for it.

That episode of Nanjirou in America is quite revealing--I think there's a scene where Konomi draws Nanjirou challenging the bullying coach, much the same way we have Ryouma challenging Kirihara. I think even the words they used were similar ("teach me how to play tennis"?) The parallels are interesting to think about.

Huh. What a long comment for me. This is what happens when you obssess about the manga for a whole year before watching the anime.

I adore this arc, by the way. Looking forward to more.

The anime certainly plays that day as an us-against-the-jerks thing, but I saw that particular gesture as such a father-son thing, in the manga, that it really struck me when Ryouma used it.

*thoughtful* It's not that I think Nanjirou is total scum. Nor that he's deliberately fucking with Ryouma's head. More that he's managing the effect despite not meaning it. And, while I could forgive that in an opponent, when it happens in a parent it makes me see red.

Midoriyama is the team whose coach also has his son in the lineup. That's actually one of the places that gets my hackles up again, for Nanjirou's remark that kids are there for parents to toy with. Again, I don't think he's entirely serious, but I don't think he's entirely joking, either.

*grins* Obssessing about the manga is a perfectly good thing. Glad you're liking this branch! More on the way.

Midoriyama is the team whose coach also has his son in the lineup. That's actually one of the places that gets my hackles up again, for Nanjirou's remark that kids are there for parents to toy with. Again, I don't think he's entirely serious, but I don't think he's entirely joking, either.

Eh-huh. I knew it had to be Midori-something.

Maybe it's just because my social circle is weird--and the books I read--but plenty of people around me say that they'd like to have children to 'play with'. And these are some of the most serious, devoted parents I've ever met. So I guess I didn't think of that remark as a sign of anything negative, just some shoptalk between parents.

Go Momo!!! (I feel so terrible for typing Moomoo the first time. Please forgive me). And that makes me wonder, because Nanjiroh may be callous and at times stupid but he never smacked me as a fool. And it hurts on a fundamental level, because dammit, Ryouma is your son no matter how much of a mutant he may be.

Will attempt to download scans as soon as I get home. THANK YOU! LOVE YOU *huggles*

Actually, I keep wondering about Ryoma's relationship with his mother. I still manage to like Nanjiroh as a person (though he makes a lousy father), but I really think that whatever sense of respect for others and responsibility Ryoma has would have to come from his mother. (Also, given the Nanjiroh-in-America thing, while protecting the innocent is something that Nanjiroh will do, I'd bet on Ryoma's getting his sense of justice from his mother too.)

The ending of the flashback, when Ryoma's three, is cute in a rather chilling way - Nanjiroh's challenge to Ryoma could sound like a cute sort of prompting if not for the way he pushes Ryoma in the years that follow. The one problem that I have with Ryoma's mother is that we don't know that she did anything to stop it (though I allow that I doubt she could have, after Ryoma decided to beat Nanjiroh.)

Me too! You figure, if his mom is a lawyer, she probably has pretty firm ideas about justice, and if she came back to Japan to practice, she must have a lot of gumption.

*nods vigorously* A three year old, for pity's sake! The man is just not quite sane.

*hearts*

I'm never sure whether she's a teacher or a lawyer. I've heard that she teaches school, but I know she went to America to study law.

No weirder than parents who believe that their precious darlings are future Mozarts, Nobel prize winners, etc.

...yeah, but I don't think that they're sane either. Or less damaging.

To qualify this: I don't think they're intentionally damaging to their children, and those who take into account how much their children love a certain thing/how much their children really want to work at a certain thing are excellent at fostering their children's talent. Nanjiroh isn't making Ryoma do something Ryoma's not interested in. The problem, for me, is setting himself up as Ryoma's opponent/supporter. Not that it's an utenable position, especially with Ryoma, but I don't think it's an approrpiate position for a parent.

Point taken.

However, (Warped World-view speaking:) I don't expect parents to be 100% sane. They're not sane for wanting children in the first place. I expect all parents to warp their children's minds, some more severely than others.

And then there's Ryouma to consider. Would Ryouma had turned out differently if Nanjirou were a caring, nurturing, supportive parent? (He wouldn't have let the boy play tennis if that were true, given the number of other crazies in the tennis world.) Probably Ryouma wouldn't have the same sort of insecurities as Ravenwood describes, but what the hell. He's a smart boy. He'll figure it out.

Subscribes to the "children are tough" philosophy.

Would Ryouma had turned out differently if Nanjirou were a caring, nurturing, supportive parent? (He wouldn't have let the boy play tennis if that were true, given the number of other crazies in the tennis world.)

*shakes finger* Three point penalty for specious-rhetoric-chopping! You use the terms caring, nurturing and supportive as if they meant overprotective and smothering, which is not what either Crysiana or I have been implying.

Actually, Tezuka is, as indicated, far closer to my idea of a good, nurturing, supportive parent. He lets Ryouma go as far as he can, against Ibu while injured, against Sanada despite the unlikelyhood of winning, but he also sets very distinct limits that everyone involved understands. He has a good balance, and he's teaching that to Ryouma.

*thinks* I suppose, really, I subscribe to Cordelia's early opinion: people should have to pass a proper exam to have children, not just the practical. Kids are tough, but I don't believe in letting the people who put them in this already screwy world duck their responsibility by leaning too hard on that.

Which is precisely why I will never have any, and entertain myself by messing with the heads of other peoples' as soon as the dear things are legal adults. *grin*

*shrugs* Like I said, I'm not as level-headed as usual on this score; it punches personal buttons. I will admit that no parent will ever get it all "right", because that's a living kid they're working on not a computer program, and the ones who know this will probably come out of the experience more sane than the rest.

*shakes finger* Three point penalty for specious-rhetoric-chopping! You use the terms caring, nurturing and supportive as if they meant overprotective and smothering, which is not what either Crysiana or I have been implying.

Guilty, guilty, guilty. (?) Ahem. Actually, I didn't mean for those words to imply overprotective and smothering. I was trying to provide a contrast, though that may not have been the best way of doing it. Would you see Nanjirou as overprotective and smothering if he hadn't let/encouraged Ryouma to play tennis, either because of the crazies or for some other reason?

I am genuinely curious as to what your idea of proper parenting would be for someone like Ryouma, though. How would a former tennis genius who is intensely interested in developing his own son's tennis skills treat him? Does your later comment mean that you approve of Tezuka's style, then (while not suggesting that he is a parent)?

On re-reading your fic (and how enjoyable it is) I'm compelled to apologise for objecting to your protrayal of Nanjirou just off the bat, because you've clearly stated that you have made up your mind on him, and I'm the one who was hastily getting to the fic and never stopped to read your comments.

Many thanks to Crysiana too for taking the trouble to respond to my unlooked-for comments.

*small grin* No problem. As long as you don't mind that I probably won't compromise on this one, I don't mind hearing other views.

A proper parent for Ryouma... it is a challenge. I do approve of Tezuka's style. He's quite strict, but very much in the "teach him how to live dangerously" way. I seem to be falling back on Cordelia quite a bit, here, but she is my very best model of how to raise a genius. The fact that Ryouma responds so immediately and, for him, respectfully to Tezuka says to me that he needs someone who will be blunt and straightforward with him, and not try to bait him into accomplishment. Also, perhaps, someone more comfortable with his authority than Nanjirou, the eternal adolescent, seems to be. Given that the parent is Nanjirou, the question gets harder.

I think a big part of my objection is that, as the manga tells it, the main reason Nanjirou hasn't utterly ruined his son is blind, dumb luck. Issue 0 tells us that Nanjirou decided to make his son into his rival at the ripe age of three, based on his showing a fighting spirit (good eyes, the signifier of someone who has determination and purity of purpose). Just lately, Inoue suggests that Ryouma's talent is a matter, not of natural gift, but of unrelenting training. This suggests to me that his natural gift is not for tennis in particular, but more for any physical competition that offers him a challenge. Nanjirou appears to be the one who chose to channel that into tennis, for his own rather selfish purposes (boredom, to wit) and the fact that Ryouma does turn out to like the game is the only thing that keeps this from being an unmitigated catastrophe and tragedy. Luck.

I guess I find it hard to believe that he does any of this out of care for Ryouma, especially given his constantly belittling method of teaching.

The stuff about Nanjirou aside...

I see what you mean about Tezuka, though I'd thought the reason he gets across to Ryouma better was because he met another challenge who may or may not be on par with his dad.

Also, perhaps, someone more comfortable with his authority than Nanjirou, the eternal adolescent, seems to be.

Because Tezuka is Buchou? The problem for me is that the Tezuka-Ryouma interactions don't say "I'm being a proper guide" (or parent-like figure), they say, "He's going to be a strong opponent to watch out for."

On another note... the problem with teaching someone to live dangerously is that he can become dangerous to everyone, especially himself. Cordelia's teaching is admirable and in certain respects it might be good for your genius offspring to go off and crash and burn (or fly) for himself--but ouch!--but I'm not sure if Tezuka is doing that for Ryouma. He's good and fair and he takes care of his team, but other than that, I think the other players have more positive interaction with Ryouma than he ever did.

(On a totally OT note, would Cordelia's approach have been successful if Miles weren't a genius, do you think? Or if Miles was like Ivan, for example?)

Honestly, I'd always thought that Tezuka was a tad predatory in the manga. All that watching... then out of the blue, "I wanna play a match with Echizen," and after that it's "become the pillar of Seigaku". Me: pfft.

Now that I've sort of convinced everyone that I've been reading the mutant version of PoT, hence the interpretations, I shall go ponder on Nanjirou's parenting skills a bit more. By the way, belittling as a teaching tool? Mutant-manga-reading me says: gag joke!

*laughing* Ah, but to decide whether Cordelia's methods would work on Ivan, we have to decide just what Ivan is. Not an easy task. More generally, I think Cordelia would have succeeded in assuring Miles that she loved and valued him for exactly what he was, whatever that turned out to be. She seems to be good at that, if Mark is anything to go by. To a certain extent I think the competence in living dangerously is self-adjusting; if Miles were less ingenious in coming up with dangerous things to do, there would be less demand on him to come up with equally ingenious ways of getting out of trouble. Even with a non-genius, I think Aral had a point: the trick is figuring out when to let go. That's true with any child.

More generally, I think Cordelia would have succeeded in assuring Miles that she loved and valued him for exactly what he was, whatever that turned out to be.

I expect you're right, though what I really like is the confidence she has in him, whatever happens--and it's a confidence she has helped to inculcate. Both his parents do that.

I hope you don't mind that I declare an end to this parenting session? We've got our own ideas about Nanjirou, Tezuka and so on, and I think to go on will result in a terribly undignified screaming fit (on my end, at any rate). It's been great--and surprising--to hear your views. Much thanks.

Besides, I want to read more MomoRyo from your hands soon. Like, now.

*waves hands* Working, working. Next one should be up in a day or two. Complete with an appearance by my most favorite character, Karupin. *evil grin*

That was exactly what I was going to say. You beat me to it. *snugs*

I don't have anything long or intelligent to say like everybody else, I just wanted to say that I love the way you write MomoRyo. :D

Works for me; thank you! <3

Wow, I like fics where Ryouma actually sits down and thinks because most of the time, he's always impatient to simply just go do something.

Nanjiroh loves his kid, but truth be told, he's probably not cut out to be a parent and probably never will be.

Thank you! Ryouma was hard to get a handle on for a long time, exactly because he's so given to action and so sparing with his words. I was hugely relieved when this story arrived in my head, and the kid finally decided to talk to me!

ohhhh! T_T yes...that's about it. I go back and forth on how I feel about Nanjiroh...sometimes I kind of like him, but I have no respect for him at all. *huggles Ryoma* Lovely angst there, and he's a damn smart kid as usual. I love that about him. He's more of a man at 14 or 16 or whatever than his father is or, it seems, will ever be. I <3 him. And you. ^^

*heartsback* Ryouma does have these remarkable flashes of maturity to go along with his adolescent snarking and sulking. It's part of what makes him so loveable! *pets Ryouma, who glowers*

Emily...you know I'm not reading these MomoRyo fics for the obvious reason, but...I want to know...you are sure it won't prejudice the developing of the Mirror Writings Arc in my mind, right?
I know you've already said it tome, but...I just want to be sure...

*nibbles nail* Ryouma himself gets more developed in this branch, but I don't think it will mean any major changes in his character or outlook. You might want to read this one, actually, it's a Ryouma introspective with barely a mention of Momo, and I think it covers the major turning point Ryouma will have in these stories.

Ok...I think I'll give it a chance.

i personally think that nanjiroh is a TERRIBLE father. i don't bother pointing it out in fic, but frankly it goes a long way towards getting me to like ryoma and forgive his unbelievable mary-sue tendencies to win, win, win. i think it's only natural that ryoma be really mad at his dad, not only for having given up the game and basically gone into hiding (which to me suggests that he never really did "get it" the way ryoma does, thanks to tezuka), but also for being a real JERK.

your ryoma's a bit less homophobic than most guys, if he lets someone cuddle him in bed, even if it's his best friend and he really, really needs it. ^^ but oh, i do adore the two of them being close. and momo being protective.

*nods vigorously* I always kind of wonder whether Ryuuzaki-sensei is disappointed by Nanjirou. I mean, she loves seeing the boys go to their limits, and it kind of seems like Nanjirou never quite did...

i get the feeling she's...resigned. like, she doesn't agree with what he did, but then again she's NEVER managed to control him. what he needed was for someone to whup his ass in tennis, but that just never happened (or at least not fast enough.) i'd bet she'd be the first to be pleased if she saw ryoma surpass him, though.

i wonder if anyone has ever written an AU fic where nanjiroh doesn't quit, or any nanjiroh-centric fic at all. *ponders*

Hmmm....having recently been challenged on why, exactly, I like Ryoma as much as I do, I've been thinking about this, and came back to reread this fic. Interestingly enough, there is now a discussion in the comments. ^_^ Some very good points there. And this, I think, really is why I like him as much as I do...that in spite of the fucked up way he was raised, he hasn't let it ruin him. He keeps fighting. People call him a Mary Sue like he has everything easy, and hate the way he always wins, and I see the point, but.

He does work at it. He doesn't take his talent for granted; he's always wanting to be better. He's really a tough kid....I respect that. He wins, not always easily, but he never stops trying and never gives up. He has a goal and he's not going to let anything stop him. *blinks* *groans* Oh my god, another one. *laughs* You should see the latest post in my journal...heh. I should add Ryoma to that list. XD

Mmm...I don't know enough people who feel about Ryoma the way I do...mind if I friend your other journal? I'd love to listen to you go on about characters and motives. ^_~ Do you have AIM of any kind? I'd like to chat with you sometime, if you do.... ^_^

You will be quite welcome at my other journal. AIM, unfortunately, is one of my personal phobias. ^_^;

I do wonder, sometimes, if there's a shortfall in sympathy for some characters because tenipuri is, in part, about the trials of genius. It deals with a lot of extraordinary characters, and focuses a lot on how they manage to get along in day-to-day life when they can't fit in. Each of them showcases a different coping method. Ryouma's seems to be a cultivated indifference, unless and until he sees that the other person will understand; then he gets all bright and smiley and cheeky.

...and the TezuRyo is calling my name again, as I think about this. *sigh* Well, off I go, pausing on the way to friend you.

PoT: Mirror Writing: Ripple

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There goes my good mad...

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Eh?

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