Japanese in English-language fic

[branchandroot]

Another Three Weeks post.

This is an interesting topic, for me, because I tend to watch the debates over it from more than one viewpoint at once. On the one hand, I'll enter cheerfully into the vociferous debates over what effect different types and amounts of other languages in English fic has. On the other, I have observed that the amount and type are both, functionally, beside the fandom point.

In fandom function terms, Japanese in an English language fic serves as a shibboleth and a sign-post. It says "this is a fic from the anime/manga fandom family" and gives notice thereby what the author's likely target audience is--and also what tropes may be showing up in the story. To be sure, those tropes are often very unexpected to fans from the domestic fandom family, so the marker function is actually a pretty important one.

In marker terms, what I think of as first generation fan usage may actually serve the purpose best. This type of usage is characterized by using such Japanese as can be easily parsed out of a subtitled show by those with no previous knowledge of the language: demo, hai, nani, etc. There's no pressing translational quandary attached to these; indeed, they're some of the simplest words to translate directly. By that token, they are easily understood from the context of the English sentence they're embedded in and don't require any linguistic acumen at all. They serve the shibboleth function purely and without impeding reading comprehension.

I can't actually stand reading stories written with this in them, but I nevertheless recognize that it has a valid function and serves it very well.


Second generation usage is what most of us argue over these days. Each English language writer strives to find a balance of Japanese language signals she is comfortable using, and the balance is individual and idiosyncratic. (And, really, isn't it well past time we acknowledged that there's no actual objective standard involved? Because there isn't, despite the way the arguments attempt to claim or construct one.) One writer will abjure any use of familial titles (niisan, hahaue, etc.) while retaining the essential social titles (-san, -kun, etc.) at least sometimes and perhaps a selection of nouns (shikigami, youkai)--but only some. Another writer will translate everything except the proper names themselves, rendering jogress into dna and taisa into colonel, and will denounce any retention of Japanese outside the names as fangirl. Yet a third will retain all titles, including vocational ones like buchou and obscure ones like kanri, but only in dialogue. And a fourth will use pretty much any Japanese term that is repeated with sufficient frequency and intensity (miko, shichiseishi, etc.). It's all about balancing understanding, including one's own, with the need to signal and, at least in some cases, with how easy a given term is to translate into smooth English.

This is invariably influenced by the choices made by the translator of one's source. The author who read a scanlation of X that uses Chi no Ryuu is likely to use that phrase in her fic, while the one who read the commercial translation that uses Dragon of Earth will probably use that instead. Similarly, a writer who watched the dubbed version seems more likely to use either no Japanese or else non-canonical formations (Hee-chan) than the one who watched the subtitled version, who will most likely follow the translator's choices as above.

I have observed that someone who is, if not fluent, at least conversant in Japanese is more likely to translate everything than someone who knows only a handful, but this is based on quite a small sample size and may or may not hold generally.

My personal choice is to use all titles; this is largely due to my grammatical brain piping up. Listening to subtitles, it is clear that titles and names function as a single unit, one frequently substituting wholesale for the other. Thus, I feel the same way about translating titles that I do about using Thaddeus in place of Tadeo. It doesn't help that I'm a sometimes unreasonable perfectionist and would feel an itch to translate Niisan as "casually respected elder brother" to differentiate it from Oniichan (cutely respected elder brother [who I am about to wrap around my little finger]). This choice relies on the fact that my target audience will already be familiar with these name-title units, having also watched the subs. When that familiarity becomes problematic, then I may wind up translating the title in question, but I'm just as likely to keep it and gloss it in the narrative text. I do not pretend that this is anything other than personal preference, based on my own mode of writing which is very audially specific.

This knowledge does not make me any less pissed off when someone accuses me of fangirl Japanese, given the weight of contempt that label carries. I am particularly incensed by the implication that "fangirl Japanese" is something used by people who don't actually understand the proper usage of the terms they're throwing into their English fic or, on the other end of the spectrum, who are doing this to show off in some way. Both implications are the residue, not of thoughtful sociolinguistic analysis, but of turf wars over who gets to be called a Real Fan. I find the smugness of the accusation deeply distasteful, and a fairly reliable signal that the person making it actually knows less than I do.


Bottom line: it isn't going away, and there exists no actual standard by which any of us can justifiably demand that everyone do it our way. Deal with it.

Comments

[chronolith]

This is something that I've been struggling with in MariMite fic. Because my inclination is to translate everything, including titles, because I can hear the translation in my head so I don't feel the need to keep the title or relationship marker. I normally feel like I can get that same relationship marker done through the English text.

MariMite is one of the few shows where all of those relationship markers (sama, san, kun, chan, oneesama, oneesan, etc) become highly charged by in MariMite it is All About The Relationship in an intense way that I really haven't encountered in another anime and I have had a devil of a time getting the same connotation through in English, because we don't really have the same sorts of markers. I feel almost like I'm trying to translate clan relationship markers in Athabascan into English. The English language is just not set up to think like that.

But on the other hand when you decide to use those relationship markers you make the assumption that your readers will understand to the same degree that you do what you intend with those markers and I'm not always sure that assumption is sound.

So, yes, struggle.

[annotated_em]

*noms on your delicious chewy brains*

[branchandroot]

*nodnod* Yeah, the attempt to balance what your audience is likely to know makes it all the harder to wrestle with your own sense of "does this say what I want it to".

[branchandroot]

*hearts* A lovely prompt, I must say.

[gramina]

Huh. Now I'm trying to decide if the use of foreign languages (French, Spanish, and Latin, at least, and maybe more) in Georgette Heyer or Dorothy Sayers functioned in any way as a social shibboleth, and if so, was that all it did, or did it also serve to carry nuances of character? (For instance, Peter's uncle writing a letter to an English-speaker in French -- which establishes the English-speaker's fluency, tells us something about the uncle, and yet makes it harder for readers to figure out what's going on with the letter, because no direct translation is given. How wide-spread were foreign languages in England in that period? Would a good knowledge of Latin suffice to get the gist of a letter in French? I can piece it together with my very old high school French, so maybe..? You see.)

Interesting question. Not, afaict, exactly the one you were asking, but interesting anyway.

[branchandroot]

*nodnod* I think it did, and also in the texts she was basing her novels on, like Austin. It was a pretty strong class marker within the novel-world, for one thing, and I think that demonstrating the author's knowledge of that fact /and/ requiring that the audience also have the marker both went into it.

[marshtide]

Dorothy Sayers also used ancient Greek. Repeatedly, in Gaudy Night. *groans* In that case the frequency of foreign languages was ridiculously high, but did make a kind of sense considering the way the rather insular world of Oxford was presented and the fact that most of the cast were scholars. I take it to be a marker of class and/or Proper Education at the time... possibly on the part of both the characters and the writer.

[staranise]

Well, Heyer and Sayers were definitely writing about people, and for an audience, where fluency was quite simply assumed. It was quite simply expected that someone with pretensions to class would know at least one ancient and two modern languages.

[staranise]

I have observed that someone who is, if not fluent, at least conversant in Japanese is more likely to translate everything than someone who knows only a handful, but this is based on quite a small sample size and may or may not hold generally.

I think this holds true for translation across the board, which I get from reading many many works in translation, and many translations of the same work; it's actually easier to leave a unique word untranslated and slop it into your glossary than it is to tweak your entire text, very subtly, to indicate the additional cultural and linguistic allusions and connotations a word carries in its original language but not in English, so that a complete newbie to the culture can get what's going on, and knowing the specifics of translation (like knowing when people in a French movie switch between vous and tu in an English dub) is just an easter egg, and not an wholly missing element.

[dancing_serpent]

I don't write much, but I read tons and tons of fanfiction and yeah, I've encountered all your examples. What you describe as first generation fan usage annoys me to no end, but I have to admit I rather like the second generation usage.

Especially because as an EFL writer I'd rather use a Japanese expression than try translating it into English and being not sure about the accuracy of my translation. I've seen what can happen (and I've made such mistakes myself) when a translation makes a detour over another language than the original source.

[branchandroot]

Oh yes, and there's a huge corner of the debate based on just how how translatable some term or concept is--whether it's possible to make that tweak and still wind up with something that sounds good in one's chosen narrative form. *dry* The lack of awareness, among a whole lot of writers, that they have /made/ a choice of form and that the choice has stylistic implications makes the whole thing a lot more muddled. It's /miles/ easier to just use Aniue and rely on osmosis among the audience.

[branchandroot]

*nodnod* Especially if you don't have access to the kanji to look them up! There are so many homophones, a person can really screw up trying to translate with incomplete knowledge. *rueful* Hence my lack of consistent confidence in fan translators.

[staranise]

Also, many writers often don't have the ability in English to make an accurate translation--if there is a way to express it in English, but that use is archaic or obscure (like titles of peerage, second person singular), they're less likely to be able to use it.

[dagas_isa]

I've noticed your pattern in my own work. Back when I was writing Fushigi Yuugi or Sailor Moon fic, I'd put in as much Japanese as I could, even when it didn't make sense. At this point it's down to honorifics, and words that don't have any direct English translations. Sometimes, I debate putting in words or phrases that are iconic to the canon (like "baka-shojiki" for my current fandom) but usually even then I'll stick with the English.

I think the other thing I've noticed in my fics is since I've started understanding Japanese and reading the source in Japanese is that I try to make my English more "Japanese-like" in my structure/vocabulary choice without making it sound like a bad translation. Like having characters address others by name more often, where they might have only talked in the third person, or by purposefully avoiding religion-based swear words.

[branchandroot]

*nodnod* That using the names constantly really does sneak in doesn't it? It's such a striking speech pattern, and it hauls a whole lot of the "how are these people related" load.

[rubyfruit]

This knowledge does not make me any less pissed off when someone accuses me of fangirl Japanese, given the weight of contempt that label carries. I am particularly incensed by the implication that "fangirl Japanese" is something used by people who don't actually understand the proper usage of the terms they're throwing into their English fic or, on the other end of the spectrum, who are doing this to show off in some way. Both implications are the residue, not of thoughtful sociolinguistic analysis, but of turf wars over who gets to be called a Real Fan. I find the smugness of the accusation deeply distasteful, and a fairly reliable signal that the person making it actually knows less than I do. (Emphasis mine)

All of this.

I found myself nodding with everything you said, especially that last part.

[branchandroot]

Yes. And, you know, I've whined and complained about fellow fans who commit egregious grammar by /both/ Japanese and English standards all in the same sentence, but I'm damn well not going to say they're not good fans!

[rubyfruit]

This is exactly the best attitude to have--yes, the poor grammar can make you cry, but it's nothing to start Fandom Turf Wars over.

And the idea of Fandom Turf Wars makes me go "Whuh?" because I don't think of Fandom as a place with limited space, but a wide open field where the sky's the limit and even then, you can reach beyond the atmosphere and reach the moon if you damn well please.

But that's another show rant.

[pseudo_tsuga]

Came here via the animanga newsletter and this is a great post. I started fandom through ff.net and I still remember the writers who'd have a glossary the size of the chapter with stuff like "What?" "Yes" and "No." :D

[branchandroot]

*laughing* Oh goodness, I remember those too! And all the websites and shrines had a page of that stuff.

[graychalk]

Not exactly sure how I stumbled upon this, but I'm so glad I did (and I hope you don't mind my commenting on such an old post).

I've never thought of the "difference" as first and second generation usage of Japanese in English fic, but it makes complete sense. It's also interesting that you noted the observation of those who know more Japanese being more likely to translate everything than someone who doesn't.

I've noticed similar patterns as well, though what I've also come to realize is while the ones who have a fairly decent command of the Japanese language may tend to translate everything, the ones who have full command of the language, especially on par with their English (language and culture, both) will sometimes actually use some Japanese. It makes sense (to me), as I'm of the believer that there are words in language that can't be translated over simply, at least not without losing some of its essence - and I don't mean just Japanese/English here. Often times, it's due to culture, but I suppose that begs the question of whether not translating something helps at all if the audience may not catch the cultural reference/ties to begin with.

I'm curious, though, about what you think when it comes to the usage of speech quirks or catch phrases? Do you tend to use them as is, translate them, ignore or perhaps avoid them altogether? Like "mah..." or say, using examples from fandoms I'm seeing on your sidebar tags, something like:

- Lee and his "yosh"
- Eiji and his "nya"
- Naruto and his "(da)ttebayo"
- Hiyoshi's "gekoukujo"

I think these types of stuff are the ones I have the most trouble deciding sometimes. Some are easy to just avoid (like Naruto's dattebayo) but there are many out there that just stumps me from time to time. Translating it just makes it awkward, not to mention it sometimes just isn't possible to "translate" because it requires more of a cultural/historical explanation than anything. I suppose one can always just avoid using it at all, but I'm torn between wondering if that sacrifices certain aspects that makes the character who they are.

I'd love to hear your opinion, if you'd be so inclined to share them (as old as this post is). In any case, your post was very interesting for me to read - thanks. I'm sorry I rambled on a bit though... :P

[branchandroot]

Not at all, feel free to comment anywhere!

I do think that mannerisms are the hardest to translate, because you can't really translate them directly, especially between such grammatically different languages as Japanese and English. Things like "yosh" can usually be translated fairly felicitously with a variety of loosely parallel exclamations like "right" or "fine" or "yes". But particles have to be... well, the way I think of it is that they have to be dissolved and a similar flavor added in some other way. For Eiji, that means I include a little extra physical description focusing on the mischief or the inquisitiveness of his body language. For Naruto, actually, the determination he shows in other ways gets the point across well enough to count, for me without feeling any need to specifically account for that speech pattern. It depends a lot on the character and how reasonably the mannerism does or doesn't translate in words. I do spend a good deal of time, with Hiyoshi, on just how focused he is on overcoming Atobe, but I never use the phrase "gekokujo" or any translation of it. And if I ever write Kenshin, you can be assured I will not be "directly" translating his "de gozaru" endings. His language, in rurouni mode, would be a bit formal, perhaps. He might not use many contractions. The dialogue would probably get a lot of mood markers like "respectfully" or "humbly". In general, I think that's a useful approach; the people who have enough linguistic knowledge to know what his different speech modes really sound like will know what the mood markers mean, and the people who don't won't be scratching their heads over tortured grammar.

They will pry my titles out of my cold, dead fingers, though. *grins*

[graychalk]

The different examples you gave, I think, magnifies fairly well the reasons behind my issues with approaching some of these. I was never able to pin down why my approach for this particular aspect of translation feels so erratic but reading the way you approach them made me realize that my problem probably stems from how well I think the mannerisms/speech patterns can be transferred over - or perhaps it's more accurate to say how well I am able to find a way to do it. I feel the same way you do about Naruto's, and I'd probably approach Kenshin's the same way you would if I write him (as well as Hiyoshi).

Eiji, on the other hand, was what made me realize that the problem probably lies in me, and as an extension, my unsureness of whether his "hoi" and "nya" can be portrayed via another manner. Sometimes yes, sometimes no... but I guess at the end of it all, I can probably only deal with this on a case by case basis. Or something. *scratches head*