Branch (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
branchandroot) wrote2012-06-13 01:04 pm
branchandroot) wrote2012-06-13 01:04 pm
Entry tags:
*snorts* Yeah. The concept and current system behind tags is such a bizarre mashup of "we have to let everyone do anything they want" and "we have to be in complete control". Certainly non-author wrangling should have to go through review/approval, otherwise... oh god, the potential for vandalism. *winces at the thought* But let the /author/ have an "approve it/trash it" button! I mean, if she doesn't want to use it, fine, leave it for the wranglers (poor sods), but give her one! This could go so much faster and smoother with a tiny bit of forethought and automation. And someone in charge who's less of a flaming control freak.
*laughs* Okay, that's funny. Yeah, there are so many accounts that going alphabetically takes forever, and the search was pretty useless last time I used it. Way too limited, couldn't even handle "same name with or without spaces". I think, to start with, it was even case sensitive. But the random button likes you! *giggling*
Wow, it exists in some form! *cheers*
I was really hoping there could be a version on the Upload form, rather than the generic feedback; but I guess that's just too advanced for an archive in beta. It'd be really awesome if it could warn you when a tag was unique, or have a little "this should be linked to" box, something like that. Remembering what I wanted linked and where so that I can go to the Feedback page afterward is kind of difficult, because I have a memory like Swiss cheese.
Still, at least there's one way to suggest that "x should be linked to y" -- thank you!
I was really hoping there could be a version on the Upload form, rather than the generic feedback; but I guess that's just too advanced for an archive in beta. It'd be really awesome if it could warn you when a tag was unique, or have a little "this should be linked to" box, something like that. Remembering what I wanted linked and where so that I can go to the Feedback page afterward is kind of difficult, because I have a memory like Swiss cheese.
Still, at least there's one way to suggest that "x should be linked to y" -- thank you!
This would explain why the sidebar had turned into an unusable mess in fandoms that had had crossovers or drabble dump posts dumped into them. It's not actually that they'd associated all the crossover tags in the database, which always struck me as flat out legit insane and something that really made no sense even for their tag wrangling lunacy, it's that they're walking through all the 1,000 works and pulling the tags from them, so -- you get all the characters from the fandoms that are in no way actually associated the fandom in question.
Exactly. As soon as someone said "starting from the story tags" it all made sense. In a really dreadful way. It's exactly because none of the tags are associated with anything but individual stories.
It is a horrifying sort of clarity, yes.
That graphic. That graphic is what is getting me. They put out there in visual form for all to see how flamingly goddamn incompetent they are.
And they probably think that's a good thing because it's totally a sign that they're Improving Communication and Working On The Problems.
(No, what would be improving communication and working on the problems would be recognising that you have profound and fundamental design problems and at minimum hire (yes, HIRE, as in pay them an appropriate professional fee) a consultant to help you go through the code and identify the problems. And then telling us you're doing that, and why. Or hey,![[staff profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user_staff.png)
mark keeps offering a few hours FOR FREE. Take THAT up and let us know you're doing so.)
That graphic. That graphic is what is getting me. They put out there in visual form for all to see how flamingly goddamn incompetent they are.
And they probably think that's a good thing because it's totally a sign that they're Improving Communication and Working On The Problems.
(No, what would be improving communication and working on the problems would be recognising that you have profound and fundamental design problems and at minimum hire (yes, HIRE, as in pay them an appropriate professional fee) a consultant to help you go through the code and identify the problems. And then telling us you're doing that, and why. Or hey,
mark keeps offering a few hours FOR FREE. Take THAT up and let us know you're doing so.)Yes, there exists a way to make a tag-wrangling suggestion.
Of course, they may choose to ignore your knowledge of the fandom and the actual real use of various tags, and tell you what's best by giving you a tag no one knows about and will never use and not fixing the actual problem you pointed out.
(That was the incident that opened my eyes to how fucked up tag-wrangling is on the AO3, how badly handled it is. It's the reason I listened so much during the election to other people's problems with tag-wrangling in its current form and came to hate the whole damn thing.)
Of course, they may choose to ignore your knowledge of the fandom and the actual real use of various tags, and tell you what's best by giving you a tag no one knows about and will never use and not fixing the actual problem you pointed out.
(That was the incident that opened my eyes to how fucked up tag-wrangling is on the AO3, how badly handled it is. It's the reason I listened so much during the election to other people's problems with tag-wrangling in its current form and came to hate the whole damn thing.)
Oh jesus the fuck christ, the implications really just hit.
Even if they are caching the works listing, they can't be caching the sidebar if they're doing it like that. There's -- I think I need some damn smelling salts myself, now.
No wonder it's two-thirds of their load, god.
Even if they are caching the works listing, they can't be caching the sidebar if they're doing it like that. There's -- I think I need some damn smelling salts myself, now.
No wonder it's two-thirds of their load, god.
Yes! That's exactly it! I just... *waves hand wordlessly* Every. Single. Index load. Regenerated from scratch and hammering the database.
... That's a really stupid little response. Honestly, folks, take two minutes and change the message. Yay! Six months! {rolls eyes}
If you want one sooner, I do actually have an invite left that they haven't taken away. I don't know what will happen after I send it - they might actually be blocking the ones we send personally. But worth a shot, if you want.
If you want one sooner, I do actually have an invite left that they haven't taken away. I don't know what will happen after I send it - they might actually be blocking the ones we send personally. But worth a shot, if you want.
They just proved beyond a doubt that it has nothing to do with the number of people, with that lovely little graph of server load vs their story finders... So let people in! Who knows, with more people, they might even get more volunteers who can help them figure their way out of this mess.
There's a bunch of locked stories on the archives now - you have to be a member of the archive and logged in to read them.
I am wistfully wishing they had been associating all the tags that ever get posted in association with a fandom in the database.
Because that would be an absolutely bizarre act of lunacy, sure, but that would be a case of what else is new hey guys the sky is blue and AO3 handles tags bizarrely.'
But... no.
I am all the fuck out of can. Also, even. I am straight up out of even. I CANNOT EVEN, BRANCH. I ACTUALLY CANNOT EVEN.
Because that would be an absolutely bizarre act of lunacy, sure, but that would be a case of what else is new hey guys the sky is blue and AO3 handles tags bizarrely.'
But... no.
I am all the fuck out of can. Also, even. I am straight up out of even. I CANNOT EVEN, BRANCH. I ACTUALLY CANNOT EVEN.
The more I look into this, the more tempted I am to go read the code and figure out just how fucked it is.
THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU ARE CARGO CULT PROGRAMMERS.
THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU ARE CARGO CULT PROGRAMMERS.
That is a distressingly accurate name for it, yes. I honestly don't think the sidebar can be fixed without re-doing it from scratch.
Honestly, it's fine, this encourages me to try to convince them to change their invite system, because I'd have been okay with a month or two wait considering how long the queue is, but 6 months is absolutely ridiculous and something there needs to change.
I did not know that Mark had offered some of his time... I may chat w/ our Volunteers chair and see if she can coordinate with him on some stuff. I can't guarantee anything at all, but I can point her in his direction. Thanx for pointing that out.
That's my take on how it was explained to me. Looking at the graph, I'm almost certain that's exactly what happens - which explains the load.
*does not code for anything, does a LOT of guessing based on logic*
Personally, I love the *idea* of the filters, but I do agree they are clunky as hell. (I'm assuming others felt the same, hence the redesign that is in progress.)
*does not code for anything, does a LOT of guessing based on logic*
Personally, I love the *idea* of the filters, but I do agree they are clunky as hell. (I'm assuming others felt the same, hence the redesign that is in progress.)
^_^ "Here, see, I was *almost* a potential consumer, but your shitty policies have turned me off. Change, damnit!"
When I was poking around at the invites, I noticed they now have over 19,000 people on the list. Six months just grew to seven. Pretty soon, they'll be at a year!
When I was poking around at the invites, I noticed they now have over 19,000 people on the list. Six months just grew to seven. Pretty soon, they'll be at a year!
I cannot recall specific details but, yes, mark has indicated several times he'd be happy to consult, particularly since OTWarchive is the only other relatively known majority-female open source project out there and, well, solidarity.
To date, he's been brushed off as far as I am aware, and since he's not personally invested in the platform sufficient to fight to be able to assist them, it hasn't gone anywhere. Perhaps the word in the right ears, though! I hope something comes of it. :)
mark has indicated several times he'd be happy to consult, particularly since OTWarchive is the only other relatively known majority-female open source project out there and, well, solidarity.To date, he's been brushed off as far as I am aware, and since he's not personally invested in the platform sufficient to fight to be able to assist them, it hasn't gone anywhere. Perhaps the word in the right ears, though! I hope something comes of it. :)
This is probably a stupid question, because I know jack all about site programming, and also the answer is probably "bullshit politics", but...Why can't they just do the tags like delicious? That's super useful and user-friendly, and they don't seem to have the site problems AO3's current model is giving them.
Not that I can give an authoritative answer, because the real answer is buried in black-box meetings. But I think there's a horrible confluence of "the interface must be simple and uncluttered!" and "it will only upset people if we show them how we scramble around and hack at things trying to make this all work" and "/obviously/ we can do it /better/ (despite being totally inexperienced and having an apparent aversion to asking or looking up how to do shit)".
So most of the tag tree is utterly invisible to the users and the wranglers have to bust their asses trying to make users' (forcibly ignorant) choices work sensibly, and never mind the right and left hands, the freaking thumb doesn't know what the first finger is doing. A lot of the essential infrastructure that delicious employed is probably in place--it's just invisible and being manually shoe-horned by an artificial extra layer of labor because no one can see what they're doing and all the users are driving blind. One reason that crowdsourced databases work is that people can see what other people have done, and a general consensus emerges about how we label things. AO3 deliberately shut that off.
Ideally, this particular issue is vast and bad enough that it may prompt some re-evaluation of that rat's nest, but personally I doubt it.
So most of the tag tree is utterly invisible to the users and the wranglers have to bust their asses trying to make users' (forcibly ignorant) choices work sensibly, and never mind the right and left hands, the freaking thumb doesn't know what the first finger is doing. A lot of the essential infrastructure that delicious employed is probably in place--it's just invisible and being manually shoe-horned by an artificial extra layer of labor because no one can see what they're doing and all the users are driving blind. One reason that crowdsourced databases work is that people can see what other people have done, and a general consensus emerges about how we label things. AO3 deliberately shut that off.
Ideally, this particular issue is vast and bad enough that it may prompt some re-evaluation of that rat's nest, but personally I doubt it.
So basically they decided to take a perfectly fuctional and useful system, made it more complicated, cut out the parts that made it work in the first place, replaced them with volunteers who may or may not have the information (or interest) to make useful connections in tagging and are generally treated like shit regardless, and then deal with their clusterfuck by removing basic functionality and also massively limiting people's access even though number of users isn't even the major factor?
...Seriously?
...Seriously?
Yeah, that about covers it, really. Oh, and didn't take the help of, like, top-ten-in-world type of experts, when it was offered. Oh, and don't forget the part about "wrote code so incredibly bad that generating a sidebar formed two thirds of the site load".
It is a clusterfuck of truly epic proportions.
It is a clusterfuck of truly epic proportions.
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