*wistful* I guess a sweeping policy of beating people over the head with this essay until they get it is out of the question?
In all seriousness, though, an excellent essay. It will never cease to baffle me how many people just don't seem to have the respect for whoever it is they're interacting with to show essential courtesy to them--which is to say, making the effort to be polite, and to show consideration for the other person's position.
I half-wonder if it's that, as the first link you posted notes, it's because people (especially online, but in some offline situations, too) just don't register that the other person is a human being--if it's a matter of either being so insulated by one's own self-centeredness, or by the medium of the internet, that the other person isn't "real". If someone isn't "real" to you, then making the effort to extend courtesy becomes even more troublesome.
(Vague parallel for offline interactions: how "real" is the person behind the counter, checking your groceries/making your mocha latte/taking the money for your fast food? Although there's a certain differential there...)
Very nice. (Specifically in the manner of number 6.)
Picking up on what lysapadin was saying about people not being "real" enough to warrant courtesy, I think that they're also not "real" enough to threaten retribution for rude and petty behaviour. The feeling of anonymity on the net not only prevents a person from thinking he/she can hurt the other non-people with whom he/she interacts, but also that he/she can't really be held responsible for bad behavior--and therefore, he/she can't be hurt in return. There's no immediate threat of punishment like there is in real life situations, and I can't count the number of times I've seen people who prance around online essentially saying, "Can't catch me!"
It's a lot harder to be a shit-disturbing asshole to someone who might reach across a counter and slug you in the face (or otherwise chastise and humiliate you for acting like a moron) than it is to be a dick to someone who might report your isp (which may result in nothing) or sign you up for bestiality porn. It ends up feeling less like a matter of stunted empathy and more like a matter of having the perfect opportunity to get away with crap.
Of course, you mentioned socialisation, and most people are likely to back down after throwing a good hissy fit, but there are others who really don't care, and they don't respond to the will of the community, because, quite simply, they are in it for the 'mean' in the first place.
I think people don't want to admit that their internet correspondence is worth some courtesy because that would be somehow dorky, or it would reveal a dependence on the computer...okay, basically what the other commenters said. So.
Word, not wanting to admit computer people are real for fear of getting jerked around is weakness.
I thought (here via metafandom) that bearing in mind the discussion was being framed in terms of nice vs mean, that people were asserting the benefits of being mean when they did mean honest (but that term had been denied them).
People who espouse the need to be nice can do so in a hypocritical manner that means being nice to your face and bitchy behind your back and against that 'mean' does have some moral advantage. I would rather know where I stood with someone than have our interactions being conducted in a false and hypocritical manner.
I've seen many a promising conversation peter out in a yahoo group because others, not involved, jump in from the sidelines saying that One person is being Mean and Hurting the Others feelings. If you can't say anything nice, say nothing at all is a phrase that, to me, leads to a stultifying and bland world in which no one says anything more controversial than "nice weather we're having here".
And someone is bound to manage to start wank about that.
Given the choice of being courteous or rude, I'd prefer courtesy but then we move on to another discussion about what is courteous because people's preferences on that vary hugely as well.
I want to gush excessively about your use of definitions here! Because, yes. (I'm sick, witness my articulacy or lack thereof.) It's such a shame that the shorthand of 'the cult of nice' and 'the cult of mean' has become so catchy, and how the argument - involving just enough commentators taking them at their most pejorative meaning - has become exhaustingly circular. It was good to be reminded of other, perhaps more pertinent words and made to consider them.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
branchandroot) wrote2006-01-07 02:43 pm
no subject
*wistful* I guess a sweeping policy of beating people over the head with this essay until they get it is out of the question?
In all seriousness, though, an excellent essay. It will never cease to baffle me how many people just don't seem to have the respect for whoever it is they're interacting with to show essential courtesy to them--which is to say, making the effort to be polite, and to show consideration for the other person's position.
I half-wonder if it's that, as the first link you posted notes, it's because people (especially online, but in some offline situations, too) just don't register that the other person is a human being--if it's a matter of either being so insulated by one's own self-centeredness, or by the medium of the internet, that the other person isn't "real". If someone isn't "real" to you, then making the effort to extend courtesy becomes even more troublesome.
(Vague parallel for offline interactions: how "real" is the person behind the counter, checking your groceries/making your mocha latte/taking the money for your fast food? Although there's a certain differential there...)
So, yeah. Word.
(no subject)
no subject
Thank you, that was clearly, concisely, and excellently put.
I think I shall consider this, along with the posts by
(no subject)
no subject
Picking up on what
It's a lot harder to be a shit-disturbing asshole to someone who might reach across a counter and slug you in the face (or otherwise chastise and humiliate you for acting like a moron) than it is to be a dick to someone who might report your isp (which may result in nothing) or sign you up for bestiality porn. It ends up feeling less like a matter of stunted empathy and more like a matter of having the perfect opportunity to get away with crap.
Of course, you mentioned socialisation, and most people are likely to back down after throwing a good hissy fit, but there are others who really don't care, and they don't respond to the will of the community, because, quite simply, they are in it for the 'mean' in the first place.
Yay, fandom.
(no subject)
no subject
Word, not wanting to admit computer people are real for fear of getting jerked around is weakness.
(no subject)
no subject
People who espouse the need to be nice can do so in a hypocritical manner that means being nice to your face and bitchy behind your back and against that 'mean' does have some moral advantage. I would rather know where I stood with someone than have our interactions being conducted in a false and hypocritical manner.
I've seen many a promising conversation peter out in a yahoo group because others, not involved, jump in from the sidelines saying that One person is being Mean and Hurting the Others feelings. If you can't say anything nice, say nothing at all is a phrase that, to me, leads to a stultifying and bland world in which no one says anything more controversial than "nice weather we're having here".
And someone is bound to manage to start wank about that.
Given the choice of being courteous or rude, I'd prefer courtesy but then we move on to another discussion about what is courteous because people's preferences on that vary hugely as well.
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
Here via metafandom
Re: Here via metafandom