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branchandroot) wrote2010-01-05 05:57 pm
branchandroot) wrote2010-01-05 05:57 pm
The difference between manga and comics
Actually, this is a lot broader than that, but that was one of the places this post started. The other was Rana's comment on a different post, words to the effect that the fan-cultures in question seem to divide themselves based only on some very fuzzy Orientalism.
I agree that fuzzy Orientalism is the most regrettably common way Western fans of similar media from different national/ethnic groups (eg comics and manga) express their differentiation. That particular expression is generally a lot of hot air, yes.
But I also think there are real fan-culture differences, touching on though not always rising directly from the mother-culture differences of the sources. This is my attempt to articulate the ones that I've seen. Warning: generalizations ahead, though not baseless ones.
ETA: To elaborate, this post is based on my own and my circle's experiences in various fandoms; unfortunately I managed to phrase things rather more generally and universally than I quite realized at the time. *rueful* None of the following is actually meant to be a Declaration Of How Fandom Is Everywhere. That said, the experience in question is not a narrow one, and I think the following is representative of a significant section of manga (and anime) fandom participants.
One major fan-culture difference is Japanophilia. Not the study of another culture, though it can in a few happy cases evolve into that, but the fad for and valorization of the surface and trappings of another culture. It makes me twitch, but there it is. However much some of us headdesk, this exoticization isn't going away anytime soon and it is a significant fan-culture difference.
Another is what we might call the discussion tropes of the fandoms. These tend to evolve from a handful of defining features in the sources where they cross with the developing tenor of the fandom culture. A recurring discussion in comic fandoms, for example, revolves around the hypersexualization of women, and how objectionable it is to reduce all the women to a set of tits and an ass. Manga fandoms do not have this discussion (ETA: I should have phrased this as something more like "this discussion or similar ones regarding the rendering of women as two-dimensional objects who exist for the benefit of men and not as fully realized characters"), not as a Known Issue, not in the open, despite an at least equal tendency to appalling objectification in the source material. Instead, the discussion usually gets pushed into private mode before it really gets going. See above, re: Japanophilia and valorization, also re: headdesking. On the other hand, the original language itself is a discussion point largely peculiar to Western manga fandoms, as will generally be the case with a translated source. It expresses as everything from language lessons to fights over transliteration systems to the eternal localization vs. "direct" translation battle, and knowledge of those debates acts as one of the shibboleths of manga fandoms.
Then there's actual style and content in the source. There has always been a certain give and take, between this particular two-set, of artistic style, and as US comics (the only ones I can speak to from experience) diversify it's becoming more evident, but there are also story tropes that are still distinct. How else, when they arise from two separate mother-cultures? To name only one, multiple genres of manga have, for decades, toyed with explicit homoeroticism in a way that comics in general do not. The genre diversity itself is another example, and the variety of story-types told in manga format. The symbolic language is, and can only remain, distinct as well. Curiously enough, such story tropes do not result in many fan-culture differences that I have seen, except insofar as manga fandom can, for example, show a more intense defensiveness, sometimes devolving into outright gay-bashing, over reading and enjoying explicit gay (only not real gay, which is a whole nother essay) romance, porn and slapstick. (ETA: I did not phrase myself with enough specificity here; I am aware of the voluble gay-bashing in comics fandoms. What I refer to is the particular "screw for my enjoyment while I deny you the right to live" double-mindedness that shows up among fen who are trying to have their cake and bash it too. The key word, here, is defensiveness.) The different story tropes I would put down as a distinction between the sources, but not one that manifests much in fandom culture outside of the actual preference for the style and content of one group of sources or another.
Now, what I would be interested to know is: do the same kinds of differences show up in the Western fandoms of Western and Asian TV? Or of Western bands and Asian bands? And do they manifest in gaming fandoms? That last especially interests me, since the game sources seem to be the most self-aware of the trans-Pacific trade.
ETA: As per suggestion, I would like to point out that I have not been present for the bulk of wrangler discussions on associated issues. These are thoughts going off in a different (somewhat) direction, so please to be not be bringing other fights in here. I am an unaligned polity.
ETA some more: Will not be replying to further comments on this one because work has descended for the term. Talk among yourselves if you like.
I agree that fuzzy Orientalism is the most regrettably common way Western fans of similar media from different national/ethnic groups (eg comics and manga) express their differentiation. That particular expression is generally a lot of hot air, yes.
But I also think there are real fan-culture differences, touching on though not always rising directly from the mother-culture differences of the sources. This is my attempt to articulate the ones that I've seen. Warning: generalizations ahead, though not baseless ones.
ETA: To elaborate, this post is based on my own and my circle's experiences in various fandoms; unfortunately I managed to phrase things rather more generally and universally than I quite realized at the time. *rueful* None of the following is actually meant to be a Declaration Of How Fandom Is Everywhere. That said, the experience in question is not a narrow one, and I think the following is representative of a significant section of manga (and anime) fandom participants.
One major fan-culture difference is Japanophilia. Not the study of another culture, though it can in a few happy cases evolve into that, but the fad for and valorization of the surface and trappings of another culture. It makes me twitch, but there it is. However much some of us headdesk, this exoticization isn't going away anytime soon and it is a significant fan-culture difference.
Another is what we might call the discussion tropes of the fandoms. These tend to evolve from a handful of defining features in the sources where they cross with the developing tenor of the fandom culture. A recurring discussion in comic fandoms, for example, revolves around the hypersexualization of women, and how objectionable it is to reduce all the women to a set of tits and an ass. Manga fandoms do not have this discussion (ETA: I should have phrased this as something more like "this discussion or similar ones regarding the rendering of women as two-dimensional objects who exist for the benefit of men and not as fully realized characters"), not as a Known Issue, not in the open, despite an at least equal tendency to appalling objectification in the source material. Instead, the discussion usually gets pushed into private mode before it really gets going. See above, re: Japanophilia and valorization, also re: headdesking. On the other hand, the original language itself is a discussion point largely peculiar to Western manga fandoms, as will generally be the case with a translated source. It expresses as everything from language lessons to fights over transliteration systems to the eternal localization vs. "direct" translation battle, and knowledge of those debates acts as one of the shibboleths of manga fandoms.
Then there's actual style and content in the source. There has always been a certain give and take, between this particular two-set, of artistic style, and as US comics (the only ones I can speak to from experience) diversify it's becoming more evident, but there are also story tropes that are still distinct. How else, when they arise from two separate mother-cultures? To name only one, multiple genres of manga have, for decades, toyed with explicit homoeroticism in a way that comics in general do not. The genre diversity itself is another example, and the variety of story-types told in manga format. The symbolic language is, and can only remain, distinct as well. Curiously enough, such story tropes do not result in many fan-culture differences that I have seen, except insofar as manga fandom can, for example, show a more intense defensiveness, sometimes devolving into outright gay-bashing, over reading and enjoying explicit gay (only not real gay, which is a whole nother essay) romance, porn and slapstick. (ETA: I did not phrase myself with enough specificity here; I am aware of the voluble gay-bashing in comics fandoms. What I refer to is the particular "screw for my enjoyment while I deny you the right to live" double-mindedness that shows up among fen who are trying to have their cake and bash it too. The key word, here, is defensiveness.) The different story tropes I would put down as a distinction between the sources, but not one that manifests much in fandom culture outside of the actual preference for the style and content of one group of sources or another.
Now, what I would be interested to know is: do the same kinds of differences show up in the Western fandoms of Western and Asian TV? Or of Western bands and Asian bands? And do they manifest in gaming fandoms? That last especially interests me, since the game sources seem to be the most self-aware of the trans-Pacific trade.
ETA: As per suggestion, I would like to point out that I have not been present for the bulk of wrangler discussions on associated issues. These are thoughts going off in a different (somewhat) direction, so please to be not be bringing other fights in here. I am an unaligned polity.
ETA some more: Will not be replying to further comments on this one because work has descended for the term. Talk among yourselves if you like.
no subject
So here I am speaking from personal experience again. ;) I lived in Japan for three years, I have a limited amount of experience participating in Japanese-language fandom, and I also have some experience geeking out with Japanese nerds like me in meatspace, both in Japan and in the United States. Many of the critiques that English-speaking fans are bringing to manga are the exact same issues that some Japanese fans are discussing, too. I.E.: Why is it always the girl who has healing powers? Why does Kagome always hang back and shout "Inu-Yasha, Inu-Yasah!" instead of, you know, shooting the Monster of the Day with her freakin' arrows? If Gonzo's anime version of Juliet is supposed to be a feminist role model, why does she keep having to be saved by men?
Japanese fans wrung their hands over the existence of Queen's Blade, widely criticized Yoshiyuki Sadamoto's statement that he "couldn't imagine" a girl wanting to pilot a giant robot (this from the guy who did the character designs for Evangelion!!), and literally went up in arms around 2006-ish when there was that big hubub about Shoujo Comic's romance manga being sexist. There's also that fantastic Japanese blogger's feminist smackdown of moe that got translated into English and widely linked a while back; of course I'm a dumbass and didn't bookmark it, although I remember that I was linked through
Therefore, again, I think we need to be careful about saying that a "Western" feminist lens is inappropriate to apply to Japanese source material; that idea assumes that Japanese feminist concerns are always different from non-Japanese feminist concerns (they aren't), it assumes that "Japan's standard of feminism" is like this alien thing that stands alone and never interacts with or adopts ideas from non-Japanese brands of feminism; and it also assumes that "Japan's standard of feminism" is this monolithic thing that all Japanese feminists agree upon. Again speaking from limited personal experience, I want to say that Japanese feminism is just as fragmented and contentious as feminism in any other country. ;)
I don't want to sound like I'm downplaying cultural differences here. I'm going to wave the "I lived in Japan!" flag again and say, believe me, I understand that there are very important differences between Japanese feminism and feminism from other cultures. But I also think it's important to recognize the common ground as well. Saying that Japanese source material should only be judged by Japanese standards (whatever those are) and that those standards are always drastically different than Western standards strikes me as skeevily exoticizing.
It's always a delicate balancing act, though - being able to address the similarities without downplaying the differences.
no subject
A good point, and I agree.
Saying that Japanese source material should only be judged by Japanese standards (whatever those are) and that those standards are always drastically different than Western standards strikes me as skeevily exoticizing.
I'm not saying they're "always drastically different". You're right to note the overlap. But I am saying that any analysis needs to note the differences, and not just blow them off with a blithe "whatever those are". Especially when you're writing an article about that fandom for people who don't necessarily understand it -- e.g. the Western media fans who frequent Metafandom, and may not even realize that J-media fandom exists. Basically, Western animangame fandom is a bicultural (really, multicultural, but trying to be clear here) fandom, so I think it needs bicultural analysis. And the OP feels very monocultural to me.
Hope I'm explaining that well.
no subject
Crapola, that was poorly-worded on my part. I apologize. I didn't mean for "whatever those are" to be dismissive; I was trying to repeat my point that there isn't just *one* set of agreed-upon standards for Japanese feminism or Japanese media analysis. That's what the "whatever those are" was supposed to mean. Clearly I am failing at wording today.
And I agree, it is always important to note the differences.
no subject
no subject