The difference between manga and comics

[branchandroot]

Actually, this is a lot broader than that, but that was one of the places this post started. The other was Rana's comment on a different post, words to the effect that the fan-cultures in question seem to divide themselves based only on some very fuzzy Orientalism.

I agree that fuzzy Orientalism is the most regrettably common way Western fans of similar media from different national/ethnic groups (eg comics and manga) express their differentiation. That particular expression is generally a lot of hot air, yes.

But I also think there are real fan-culture differences, touching on though not always rising directly from the mother-culture differences of the sources. This is my attempt to articulate the ones that I've seen. Warning: generalizations ahead, though not baseless ones.

ETA: To elaborate, this post is based on my own and my circle's experiences in various fandoms; unfortunately I managed to phrase things rather more generally and universally than I quite realized at the time. *rueful* None of the following is actually meant to be a Declaration Of How Fandom Is Everywhere. That said, the experience in question is not a narrow one, and I think the following is representative of a significant section of manga (and anime) fandom participants.


One major fan-culture difference is Japanophilia. Not the study of another culture, though it can in a few happy cases evolve into that, but the fad for and valorization of the surface and trappings of another culture. It makes me twitch, but there it is. However much some of us headdesk, this exoticization isn't going away anytime soon and it is a significant fan-culture difference.

Another is what we might call the discussion tropes of the fandoms. These tend to evolve from a handful of defining features in the sources where they cross with the developing tenor of the fandom culture. A recurring discussion in comic fandoms, for example, revolves around the hypersexualization of women, and how objectionable it is to reduce all the women to a set of tits and an ass. Manga fandoms do not have this discussion (ETA: I should have phrased this as something more like "this discussion or similar ones regarding the rendering of women as two-dimensional objects who exist for the benefit of men and not as fully realized characters"), not as a Known Issue, not in the open, despite an at least equal tendency to appalling objectification in the source material. Instead, the discussion usually gets pushed into private mode before it really gets going. See above, re: Japanophilia and valorization, also re: headdesking. On the other hand, the original language itself is a discussion point largely peculiar to Western manga fandoms, as will generally be the case with a translated source. It expresses as everything from language lessons to fights over transliteration systems to the eternal localization vs. "direct" translation battle, and knowledge of those debates acts as one of the shibboleths of manga fandoms.

Then there's actual style and content in the source. There has always been a certain give and take, between this particular two-set, of artistic style, and as US comics (the only ones I can speak to from experience) diversify it's becoming more evident, but there are also story tropes that are still distinct. How else, when they arise from two separate mother-cultures? To name only one, multiple genres of manga have, for decades, toyed with explicit homoeroticism in a way that comics in general do not. The genre diversity itself is another example, and the variety of story-types told in manga format. The symbolic language is, and can only remain, distinct as well. Curiously enough, such story tropes do not result in many fan-culture differences that I have seen, except insofar as manga fandom can, for example, show a more intense defensiveness, sometimes devolving into outright gay-bashing, over reading and enjoying explicit gay (only not real gay, which is a whole nother essay) romance, porn and slapstick. (ETA: I did not phrase myself with enough specificity here; I am aware of the voluble gay-bashing in comics fandoms. What I refer to is the particular "screw for my enjoyment while I deny you the right to live" double-mindedness that shows up among fen who are trying to have their cake and bash it too. The key word, here, is defensiveness.) The different story tropes I would put down as a distinction between the sources, but not one that manifests much in fandom culture outside of the actual preference for the style and content of one group of sources or another.


Now, what I would be interested to know is: do the same kinds of differences show up in the Western fandoms of Western and Asian TV? Or of Western bands and Asian bands? And do they manifest in gaming fandoms? That last especially interests me, since the game sources seem to be the most self-aware of the trans-Pacific trade.

ETA: As per suggestion, I would like to point out that I have not been present for the bulk of wrangler discussions on associated issues. These are thoughts going off in a different (somewhat) direction, so please to be not be bringing other fights in here. I am an unaligned polity.

ETA some more: Will not be replying to further comments on this one because work has descended for the term. Talk among yourselves if you like.

Comments

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[ceitean]

First- you mention discussions about the oversexualization of females in comics fandom that aren't present in animanga -- this is true, but I think that's because there are other focuses in animanga as far as gender is concerned. Usually, I see talk about the undersexualization of female characters who are built along the 'cute/moe/loli' model, and the differences between Western and Japanese femininity. The overexposed boobs don't seem to ping as many radars as the presentation of females as childlike seems to, at least in my circles.


Also. Your post made me think a lot about things that have been floating around in my head for a while. However, the response I eventually wrote out was very tl;dr and wasn't really aimed at you or anyone specific, so rather than spam your journal - this is the link. I'm leaving this here as it's related to the topic you started, but there's no pressure to reply to it. :) (the tl;dr, over-generalized post is tl'dr and overgeneralized, yes.)

Re: here through metafandom :)

[branchandroot]

*interested* What fandoms have you seen that in? I've mostly only heard passing references to that, usually in contrast to some overboobed character, and it sounds like it could become a very interesting discussion.

*goes to read*

Re: here through metafandom :)

[ceitean]

Off the top of my head, I remember those particular issues being talked about in KHR during a chat and about Pandora Hearts under f-lock. I also remember skimming across discussions in Naruto (surrounding Hinata, I believe?), but that was a while ago, I wasn't directly involved, and I have no clue where that is right now. ^_^;

In the KHR chat, I remember the roles of Kyoko and Haru were brought up, specifically regards to their strike, the taking care of babies, and the whole 'we are happy support personnel!' thing that was going on in the TYL arc. It brought up a lot of comparisons between Japanese and Western gender roles for women (homemaker values, third wave feminism, the difference between an American stay at home mom and a typical Japanese house wife, etc). Then Chrome was brought up, a one girl who is part of the Vongola guardians, but not really -- she's a stand in for (and literally defined by) Mukuro. And there was Lal Mirch, the kick ass soldier, but who pines after a dead baby guy, and Bianchi, a dangerous assassin who's weapon is bad cooking. (this was way before Uni, so her particular situation was never brought up, but I do think it would have been interesting to compare her situation to the portrayals of the other female characters).

I remember there was other stuff going on in there (like why Yamammoto's jump off the school building was cut out of the anime, something I didn't even know about), but that was the general gist of things.

As for the undersexualization discussion, that I've seen in Pandora Hearts. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that manga (it's good, if you want to read it ^_^), but someone pointed out a few things on how age/sexuality in girls was being depicted -- females who are 'heroes' are shown as loli while females who are (sort of) villains are all older and look like actual women. That brought up differences in perceptions of femininity, where in Japan it's preferable for girls to be seen as younger and cute while in the Western world it's more desirable for girls to be seen as older and sexy. (If Pandora Hearts were an American publication, Alice would be dressing more like Lottie, basically. She would certainly be passed puberty.)

What's fascinating is that a few years ago, there would have been so much female-bashing in this fandom. But there isn't. The female characters, even the one that gets in between the main boy pairing, are roundly loved.



Also, I apologize for the extensive summaries. As I said, the first discussion was held in a chat (no transcript, sigh) while the other was under f-lock and I don't feel comfortable breaking that even if it's just to copy/paste responses. So, summaries. ^_^

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[branchandroot]

*extremely entertained* So, that chat, would it happen to have looked anything like this post?

Yes, I do read Pandora Hearts! I haven't really found the fandom for it, but I've been reading it. I'm vastly encouraged to hear that Alice doesn't get bashed (I mean, really, the poor girl obviously has enough problems already...). The way PH plays with age and attraction all over is fascinating to me, really. I mean, Gil and Oz and Jack are a prime example. At no point are any two of them in the same age-bracket/state of corporeality, so there's this chemistry dangled in front of the fans like a carrot while the twists of fate gleefully deny any consummation.

But back to the women! I have actually wondered whether PH will explicitly address the arrested-development aspect of the pre-pubescent girls. It seems clear that Alice/the Will is older than she physically appears, and she already runs counter, in her character, to the innocence that's supposedly the point of the pre-pubescent fetish. I have hopes for PH.

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[ceitean]

hahaha, oh god, it's like a checklist. orz

At least a bunch of people are recognizing the problems? The group I was talking with were from a branch off of a re-read comm. There's just so much fail in the portrayal of every single female character in KHR, it's hard not to notice. :/

There's a lot of Alice and Sharon love. ♥ Not even Lottie gets bashed, which is awesome since she is a character who is comfortable with her sexuality.

Do you mean B-Rabbit Alice or Will of Abyss/White!Alice? Because I think the arrested development angle has already been engaged in regards to White!Alice - she was a helpless girl who was literally kept pure and childlike in up in her princess tower. And now she's stark raving insane (Break's eye, dear god).

And going off the last few chapters, it looks like Sharon is going to be getting some serious character development in the near future. She's a 23 year old girl in a 13 year old body and she was just given a very rude awakening on how powerless she really is without her chain. I can't wait to see the fallout of that. Sharon's arc looks like it's going to be very interesting.

Then of course there's Echo who is treated like a doll by Vincent, but who's the most pragmatic and logical character in the serious. Not to mention her *ahem* identity issues. Alice hasn't been focused on much lately, but I personally believe that's because the ending is going to be all about Alice anyway, so the mid part of the series is taking its time to flesh out all the other characters.

So yes, PH is my &heart; right now. :D

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[branchandroot]

It totally is a checklist! *laughing* Of course, as soon as that post got linked in the IJ meta comm I was piled on by people who told me, essentially, that I was interrogating the text from the wrong perspective. See also "no you have to do it from the Japanese point of view (which obviously you don't know anything about)".

Ummmm... *thinks* I think I meant both of them? Since they appear to be, if not the same entity, then strongly related. But Sharon! *looks forward to this* I'm a little behind, I think. *rueful* I need to catch up with Monochrome Factor, too.

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[ceitean]

...oh dear god, I just went back and read my first comment. I am so, so sorry for all those typos. /o\ *wishes like crazy to go back and edit*

Yeah, PH just started in on a new arc. The next chapter comes out on the...18th, I believe?

I think the kneejerk reaction is because current animanga fannish culture puts a lot of emphasis on learning about the source (Japanese) culture and 'authenticity'. Which is great, since better cultural understanding is always a plus, but sometimes that... community desire for understanding gets hyped to the detriment of other ways of looking at a text.

From what I've seen in online fandom, I think the default assumption is that everyone is just like you. So if you're in the process of learning about and engaging with a foreign culture, then you tend to think that everyone else is to, never mind that that other person may be coming from a different place entirely. *shrugs*

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[branchandroot]

*snorts* I'd have forgiven it faster if the people in question had given more evidence of being in "learn about the culture" mode and less in "uncritically adulate the culture" mode. Well, as has been said elsewhere in these threads, the uncritical adulation stage seems to be a pitfall of fanning just about anything. *thinks about the JKR = Next Tolkien thing*

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[ceitean]

*winces* Ah. Yeah, usually I attribute the (really annoying) cultural adoration to the first blush of fandom love -- it is blind and makes you do stupid things. The fannish hive mind that sometimes rears its ugly head doesn't help, either.