branchandroot | The difference between manga and comics

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The difference between manga and comics

Actually, this is a lot broader than that, but that was one of the places this post started. The other was Rana's comment on a different post, words to the effect that the fan-cultures in question seem to divide themselves based only on some very fuzzy Orientalism.

I agree that fuzzy Orientalism is the most regrettably common way Western fans of similar media from different national/ethnic groups (eg comics and manga) express their differentiation. That particular expression is generally a lot of hot air, yes.

But I also think there are real fan-culture differences, touching on though not always rising directly from the mother-culture differences of the sources. This is my attempt to articulate the ones that I've seen. Warning: generalizations ahead, though not baseless ones.

ETA: To elaborate, this post is based on my own and my circle's experiences in various fandoms; unfortunately I managed to phrase things rather more generally and universally than I quite realized at the time. *rueful* None of the following is actually meant to be a Declaration Of How Fandom Is Everywhere. That said, the experience in question is not a narrow one, and I think the following is representative of a significant section of manga (and anime) fandom participants.

One major fan-culture difference is Japanophilia. Not the study of another culture, though it can in a few happy cases evolve into that, but the fad for and valorization of the surface and trappings of another culture. It makes me twitch, but there it is. However much some of us headdesk, this exoticization isn't going away anytime soon and it is a significant fan-culture difference.

Another is what we might call the discussion tropes of the fandoms. These tend to evolve from a handful of defining features in the sources where they cross with the developing tenor of the fandom culture. A recurring discussion in comic fandoms, for example, revolves around the hypersexualization of women, and how objectionable it is to reduce all the women to a set of tits and an ass. Manga fandoms do not have this discussion (ETA: I should have phrased this as something more like "this discussion or similar ones regarding the rendering of women as two-dimensional objects who exist for the benefit of men and not as fully realized characters"), not as a Known Issue, not in the open, despite an at least equal tendency to appalling objectification in the source material. Instead, the discussion usually gets pushed into private mode before it really gets going. See above, re: Japanophilia and valorization, also re: headdesking. On the other hand, the original language itself is a discussion point largely peculiar to Western manga fandoms, as will generally be the case with a translated source. It expresses as everything from language lessons to fights over transliteration systems to the eternal localization vs. "direct" translation battle, and knowledge of those debates acts as one of the shibboleths of manga fandoms.

Then there's actual style and content in the source. There has always been a certain give and take, between this particular two-set, of artistic style, and as US comics (the only ones I can speak to from experience) diversify it's becoming more evident, but there are also story tropes that are still distinct. How else, when they arise from two separate mother-cultures? To name only one, multiple genres of manga have, for decades, toyed with explicit homoeroticism in a way that comics in general do not. The genre diversity itself is another example, and the variety of story-types told in manga format. The symbolic language is, and can only remain, distinct as well. Curiously enough, such story tropes do not result in many fan-culture differences that I have seen, except insofar as manga fandom can, for example, show a more intense defensiveness, sometimes devolving into outright gay-bashing, over reading and enjoying explicit gay (only not real gay, which is a whole nother essay) romance, porn and slapstick. (ETA: I did not phrase myself with enough specificity here; I am aware of the voluble gay-bashing in comics fandoms. What I refer to is the particular "screw for my enjoyment while I deny you the right to live" double-mindedness that shows up among fen who are trying to have their cake and bash it too. The key word, here, is defensiveness.) The different story tropes I would put down as a distinction between the sources, but not one that manifests much in fandom culture outside of the actual preference for the style and content of one group of sources or another.

Now, what I would be interested to know is: do the same kinds of differences show up in the Western fandoms of Western and Asian TV? Or of Western bands and Asian bands? And do they manifest in gaming fandoms? That last especially interests me, since the game sources seem to be the most self-aware of the trans-Pacific trade.

ETA: As per suggestion, I would like to point out that I have not been present for the bulk of wrangler discussions on associated issues. These are thoughts going off in a different (somewhat) direction, so please to be not be bringing other fights in here. I am an unaligned polity.

ETA some more: Will not be replying to further comments on this one because work has descended for the term. Talk among yourselves if you like.

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I'm glad you have been so fortunate. Not one of the anime/manga fandoms I have been in or through (a couple of the larger ones have been Tenipuri, Naurto, Bleach, Sailor Moon, Clamp of all sorts, Gundam Wing, Weiss Kreuz, Fushigi Yuugi, SaiMono and Utena for pity's sake) have been willing to have the objectification discussion openly. The mechanisms for suppressing and shuffling it off into small personal discussions only it could make a fascinating anthropological study in and of themselves, I suppose, but I can't say I ever really appreciated them.

I don't think you quite understood the specificity of my comments re homophobia. I am quite aware of the rampant homophobia in comics fandoms, especially among the men. What I refer to is that particularly pressurized homophobia that shows up among people, and especially women, who are attempting to keep their claim to normativity while still reading boys screwing. It results in the most insane, double-minded, exploitative "screw for my enjoyment while I deny you the right to live" statements imaginable. I find that more pernicious than the louder version.

*pauses* Okay, are you serious? I don't wish to deliberately offend, but have you really never encountered any discussions about the fact that the "gay" men in BL manga are utterly unrepresentative of any real gay community or lifestyle? That utterly unrealistic stereotypes are being deployed as paper dolls for the pleasure of a privileged majority (straight women)? And that this is a problem?

In any case, if you want to converse further, I'd appreciate a name of some kind.

And that this is a problem?

Sure I did. Enemies of slash fanfiction pull this argument out of their hat all the time.

I wouldn't call it "enemies," but "folks for whom yaoi/slash simply doesn't float their boat." I don't hate slash or yaoi, but I prefer not to read it. When asked why, yes, I have said because I'm not fond of the stereotyping that's prevalent in most fic of that nature. Sometimes someone points me at something that's NOT so stereotyped, and I have, in fact, enjoyed it. Am I an "enemy of slash fanfiction?"

*rubs forehead* Oh honestly. Okay, you've just pretty much deep-sixed any credibility I had given to your above-expressed views.

On the off chance that you are simply uninformed and inappropriately flip, rather than a troll, I shall say this: that is not the argument of enemies of slash. Their argument, such as it is, goes more like "eeew, get it off the comm!".

The argument I mentioned is the one made by gay people who object to ass-hole behavior and the appropriation of their name to perpetuate misconceptions about the real people who have to live in this world.

I have a foot in both camps, on this one, and have had to put in some long thought about my own writing before deciding how I can reconcile one with the other.

I suggest you take that example, and a few seconds, and put in some actual thought, if you wish to continue participating here, rather than wave around thoughtless preconceptions which will gain you no credit at all.

Enemies of slash fanfiction pull this argument out of their hat all the time.

So do many fans of slash.

This happens to be just one of many different opinions about slash that is shared by both pro- and anti-slash people.

...do you think "the objectification discussion" is necessary in those fandoms?

You keep referring to The Discussion as if it's a single uniform entity, but you characterize it as being about "the hypersexualization of women, and how objectionable it is to reduce all the women to a set of tits and an ass". Which is very relevant to Western comics (y halo thar, Power Girl), but it's hard to imagine similar conversations about Sakura, Rukia, Usagi, Yuuko, Relena, Miaka, or Utena.

*blinks* What about Samurai Deeper Kyo? Tsukino in Yakitate!Japan? Heck, Doraemon?

I'd aim for a comprehensive list, but I'd be here for the next twelve hours. That's not even a hyperbolic statement.

Saw a couple episodes years ago, never seen it, not even sure I've heard of it. So I really can't speak to how they treat female characters, much less how their fandoms react to it.

But, look, I'm not arguing that no anime/manga has a problem with hypersexualized women. (I do read Saber Marionette J, for instance.) What I'm saying is that I'm pretty sure Sailor Moon fandom (to name one example that the OP used) is not suffering from a lack of discussion about all its large-breasted, one-dimensional female characters.

Elaborate on Doraemon?

but it's hard to imagine similar conversations about Sakura, Rukia, Usagi, Yuuko, Relena, Miaka, or Utena.

Uh, but I've had them. And I've read them. Not just in private posts, as the OP asserts, but all over my flist (public posts), in reviews, even waaaaay back in the day of mailing lists. Utena was one of my first fandoms and I remember being a little chomping-at-the-bit newly-minted feminist in high school, kvetching on a mailing list about Relena in Gundam Wing. Mostly in the there's-more-than-one-way-to-objectify-a-woman vein.

The majority of these discussions today are happening in what I guess can loosely be called the "manga reviews blogosphere," in which Serious Manga Bloggers discuss issues about sexism and objectification all the freakin' time.

there's-more-than-one-way-to-objectify-a-woman

This. This is exactly what I'm trying to get at. There's an objectification discussion to be had over Utena - but it's not the "all the men are fully clothed and all the women are in G-strings" discussion of Marvel and DC.

*tries not to pounces on you too eagerly* Links! Links! Please, my kingdom for some links!

...which actually starts a whole different train of thought about the media/platform of fannish engagement and the possible cultural differences produced among them. Links? *hopeful*

The majority of these discussions today are happening in what I guess can loosely be called the "manga reviews blogosphere,"

It happens in personal journals, as well.

I remember the endless discussions about Relena: How she is in canon, how she is in fic, how much negative opinions of her are due to misogyny versus poor characterization due to misogyny, and so on and so forth ad infinitum. I've participated in a few of those myself.

In my experience, the main difference between the "meta" culture of anime and western fandoms is that in anime fandom, it's just not as widely linked. These discussions are happening, but they just don't spread as far. You have to be watching the right communities or personal journals to catch them.

Exactly. It's a different way of participating, a different kind of fannish culture. You'd think that because Western media fandom and animanga fandom both have a huge niche on LJ that their cultures would at least follow the same lines, but that's really not the case at all. And it doesn't mean that the way animanga fans discuss their sources is wrong -- we just like to keep it in the family. :)

*takes a deep breath*

*lets it out*

*calmly* Yes. I do think it's necessary. And no, I don't think it would be the same discussion, nor that discussions of objectification in separate sources are ever going to be identical and unitary. They are, however, going to have a starting point in common, and that starting point is essentially "why can't the women get a fair shake here?".

For example, consider the women of Clamp. It looks quite encouraging, and the stories almost all seem to uphold the notion of females being both empowered and emotional, and good things like that. But this only lasts while you look at the pre-pubescent girls. Adult women with adult sexuality are killed off almost every time. The most outstanding example of this is Magic Knights Rayearth, but the pattern is extremely consistent.

The women of Gundam Wing suffer the fate of capable women in most shounen, which is to be capable but secondary. They can be good as long as they're not as good as the men, and most certainly not better. Relena herself was also very damaged as a character by being made to carry too many narrative roles, but that's a different discussion.

Usagi herself I consider the one character on your list who has most escaped the trap, but consider Makoto. Consider, most especially, Makoto in the anime, and the endlessly repeated transformation sequence that has both a panty shot and a boob shot. This in something that's marketed toward girls. Consider the costumes of the women, heroines and villains alike, in comparison to the costumes of the men.

As for Bleach, shall we instead consider Orihime? Matsumoto? Shall we consider why an artist would feel called on to paste such enormous breasts on them? Shall we consider the reasons behind the swimsuit art and episodes?

Yes, I think discussion is necessary.

They are, however, going to have a starting point in common, and that starting point is essentially "why can't the women get a fair shake here?".

I am all for this, and only wish you had phrased it as such at, well, the start.

(And I would love to see a full post on pretty much any of the specific issues you mentioned.)

*wry* Yeah, me too. I actually just went and added an eta trying to encompass the lot of that. Not easy to do in one sentence.

I'm really interested in your Sailor Moon examples, not because I disagree. I'm curious about what it means that the heroine costumes are so heavily based on Japanese school uniforms. I think it's interesting that these objectifying outfits are the ones most closely based on real clothing -- which doesn't mean they're fine.

I'm also wondering if the same problems are present as heavily in the Sailor Moon manga. I don't remember it clearly, but I'm pretty sure there were a fair number of men in bizarre and revealing costumes. Or I'm just imagining things, of course...

I don't recall many men in weird outfits, but it's been over five years since the last time I read the manga. *thoughtful* And overall, it isn't quite as... impactful in the manga, I think, which is indeed curious because the outfits themselves, including the sailor uniforms, are actually skimpier. I think it's because the bodies themselves are drawn in a more stylized way. There's less emphasis on big curves and glare points; it's actually almost a sketch style.

I'm always a bit conflicted about those sailor suits. After you read a handful of interviews of older men practically salivating over the sex appeal of a school girl uniform specifically because it's a schoolgirl uniform, well... yeah. In my brighter moments I imagine that Takeuchi was trying to reclaim the sailor suit as a symbol for girls saving the day and kicking butt, but I have no actual support for that beyond my own wistful hopes.

a fair number of men in bizarre and revealing costumes

Oh, definitely. Anime and manga alike.

And when it comes to the sailor uniforms - remember that all the original design work was done by Naoko Takeuchi, who, according to her own liner notes, basically went with what she thought was cute. (Or sexy. Check these artbook notes, the one where it talks about Black Lady's dress...and I could swear there's one where she's getting giggly over a panty shot with Usagi, but I can't find it at the moment. Point is, whatever other influences may have been acting on her, she was putting the sexy stuff in for her own entertainment as well.)

As for Bleach, shall we instead consider Orihime? Matsumoto? Shall we consider why an artist would feel called on to paste such enormous breasts on them? Shall we consider the reasons behind the swimsuit art and episodes?

And consider that the crasser end of the English-speaking BLEACH fandom has taken to calling him, when he draws attention to these features, Kubo Titty.

:| The nickname may not solve the problem or ... really serve as anything but "ironic" commentary on the problem's existence (... I am, as a note, so very sick of "ironic" takes on the genres' problems like Haruhi et al. for precisely this reason), but, you know - it's not like he hasn't earned every crass ounce of that nickname.

(And, as my icons should clearly indicate, I have a massive fondness for the series, so I do spit on him out of love. Really fucking annoyed and frustrated and disappointed love, but love nonetheless.)

So I agree. So fucking hard.

(As a side note: Takeuchi may have drawn the BSSM manga and been quite a gleefully kinky writer all on her own - I'm not going to dispute that, one of the reasons I love it is its freewheeling kinkiness - but the overwhelming majority of animators and all the directors were men. And when they were faced with what to include in the copious amounts of filler necessary to pace the series so it didn't end before the manga did, there were multiple panty- and boob-related jokes added in to the anime that weren't in the manga.)

One thing that makes a discussion of objectification so hard to sustain for me with regards to some characters and some fandoms is because I've put a lot of spit and nails into liking the characters as they are, especially because I gravitate towards the broken and the nasty and the just plain morally grey, and I think sometimes, for me, it feels like dismissing those characters as just objects of desire undercuts that there are real girls out there who think similar to those characters, that it's necessary to have a character people like me can at least recognize as like us on some level, even if it's not a whole comparison (and it never should be - I've met enough NGE fanboys to know how dangerous that level of overidentification with a character can be), and I tend to flinch back from conversations like that because it often can descend into just-shy-of slut-shaming tactics, and no. (I'm not using a Simca icon for this comment by accident, after all.)

Also, I survived GWing fandom in the early '00s, I am reflexively predisposed towards disagreement with anyone trying to make me feel guilty for liking a female character, or that I should feel guilty for wanting tons of porn written about her, either, whether they realize that's what they're doing right away or not.

This doesn't mean that I think it's a bad plan in the slightest to discuss whether the creators threw too much narrative responsibility onto Relena, for example (I would disagree, but that would be an awesome conversation to have nonetheless), and it sure as hell doesn't mean I disagree that this - They can be good as long as they're not as good as the men, and most certainly not better. - is a truer statement than a true thing and that I don't still go F YEAH every time I hear someone else besides me say it despite having met plenty of people who are/were in the fandom who agree with me on it, but.

It's like, "this character is bad because she fits a role I don't like" isn't a criticism I buy into, because there is a fan out there for whom that character gives them satisfaction, and hope, and fuck if I'm going to countenance taking that away from them. (This conversation, for the record, hasn't yet gone there, and I doubt it will, based on observation and knowledge of many of the participants, but - it'd be wrong for me to say I get twitchy with certain conversational topics if I didn't explain why, I think. Since I'm explaining so much of everything else about how I see things, and all.)

And yet I totally want someone to much-more-publicly fucking take creators like Kubo Tite and Oh!Great to task for feeding the chauvinist/sexist beast that continues to thrive on those very flawed characters I love, those characters who I'm not sure would be the same if you took that context away from them. I fucking hate the fat jokes that litter shounen and shoujo manga, the vocal tics that have become so emblematic of "moe" characters, the absurdly huge breasts and innocent-no-really fanservice personality of the characters that get created to justify them, and the constant shunting aside of the female characters for the sake of the awesomeness and/or pandering not-really-gay subtext of the menfolk. I want to talk about how these characters having mature desires and interests of their own so often leads to pain and misery for them on a totally different scope from the male characters, and how this is, in its own way, a case of slut-shaming inherent in the narrative that the fandoms recapitulate in their hatred of the characters in question. I want to talk about why there's so few female characters who get to lead their own series outside of shoujo/josei comics, why so often that "lead" status within those categories often leads to the main character being led by the male love interests' demands/desires, instead. And I want to talk about how, no matter what the sales numbers seem to say, women and girls in their source cultures aren't actually comfortable with this perception of themselves and they've said so, repeatedly, in a thousand different ways, and the ways in which creators have and haven't listened to them, most of which English-speaking fandom ignores or glosses over or doesn't recognize as such because it's not how they would have done things.

But I already know a bunch of people I've had those conversations with, and it's tiring to have them again and again with the interference of people who don't get it, so since I know most of the people who I associate with feel the same, I don't have them very often in places where those assholes can get in and try to derail the discussion - it's not like I'm going to go out of my way to fuck with my own head like defending female characters and attacking the sexism of the industry in a given anime and manga to the vehement disagreement of significant portions of the fandom so often causes.

And yet I still want more of those conversations, someday. Fuck yeah, I do.

... that all made much more sense in my head, I think.

*sparkles at you really a lot* This. All of this, yes.

I hadn't actually run across Kubo Titty. How... unfortunately apropos. But, yes, the "ironic" treatment all to often seems to be an excuse to get out of seriously considering the problem. *shudders at the mention of Haruhi* That one... honestly never even struck me as very ironic? Which turned me off it instantly.

*wails* And I want to read Air Gear! But every time I do I trip over the hentai crap and have to run screaming! *shakes her fist at Ougure*

And yes. The character hate based on "do not like" seems to me very different from looking at and pointing out the systematic problems in the presentation of women. This weird concept that only things we like can be good... I think it may well be part of the problem.

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The difference between manga and comics

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